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#11

Traditional Catholic Discussion / Re: Did any Catholic ever go f...

Last post by KreKre - Today at 02:57:07 PM

Bishop Vitus Huonder, perhaps... While I doubt he was ever full modernist (whatever that means... in any case he wasn't blessing sodomites or anything of the sort), but he was a regular old NO bishop, who realized the value of TLM.

#12

Traditional Catholic Discussion / Re: Did any Catholic ever go f...

Last post by Bonaventure - Today at 02:35:58 PM

James Marshall SJ.

Was a Jesuit for approx. 30 years.

Left and is being treated as a simple seminarian under Sanborn's group.

#13

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by Bonaventure - Today at 02:22:23 PM

But in the same vein, Latins, in particular Trads, have a very biased, often incorrect, understanding of EOs. Getting passed that and understanding what they actually think/teach is the first step in getting them to see the truth of Catholicism. That's my whole point.

It's the same, I'd say, that "full communion" types have of SSPXers, and non sedes have of most sedes.

It is part of a coping mechanism to create a boogeyman. Instead of focusing on what makes Catholicism true, it is easier (especially since 1958) to say "this is what makes X false."

The real boogeyman is Bergoglio and the Conciliar Authorities. Promoting their Bastard Faith, bastard rites, faggotry, etc.

#14

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - Today at 02:13:59 PM

Toleration as a last resort is different from something being forbidden.

And I'm not disagreeing with you on that point at all. Just pointing out the nuance.

I do not think Orthodoxy is the true path - it possibly couldn't be as small individual sects who hate each other... to say nothing of all the other issues.

Rome or death. (Though these days as we know, what it means to say "Rome" is not even certain).

But in the same vein, Latins, in particular Trads, have a very biased, often incorrect, understanding of EOs. Getting passed that and understanding what they actually think/teach is the first step in getting them to see the truth of Catholicism. That's my whole point.


At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that Novus Ordoism, in any form, is bullshit.

[last resort]

#15

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by Bonaventure - Today at 02:04:49 PM

<<... ways to resist and neutralize the capacity of the leadership of the Moscow Patriarchate to... theologically legitimize criminal behavior. ...>>
Considering that the Primus Inter Pares called the Moscow patriarchate a "pseudo-religion legitimizing criminal behavior," I decided against getting involved in that Church.

Are you OK with getting involved in a Church which  currently legitimizes divorce and remarriage by a policy of easily granting  marriage annulments for flimsy reasons?

No more than I am with a church that officially legitimizes divorce. No annulment needed. Abusit non tollit usum.

As I've previously posted, your posts appear to me to be looking for a justification to become Orthodox. As I previously mentioned, be a catechumen for a year and see if that gets you anywhere.

They do not officially legitimize divorce. It is tolerated in some circumstances (VERY rare), by SOME jurisdictions, as a last resort. You have to jump through more hoops to get divorced than to get annulled in the Catholic Church. I would happily bet $20 that at an institutional level the Catholic Church ends more marriages than the Orthodox do percentage wise.

You have to keep in mind, right or wrong, that it comes down to their sacramental theology too. Generally, in Eastern theology, the Church marries the couple, so the Church, in their eyes, has the authority to undo what it has done up, as it were.

I'm not saying it's right.

Which brings me to my next point which I have constantly said

There is no nuance or true introspection/humility, whatever you want to call it when we deal with each other (Catholics & Orthodox)

Catholics: They allow divorce
Orthodox: They allow gay marriage

And on and on it goes. A millennium of antagonistic tropes that, at this point, can only be overcome by God's intervention.

Toleration as a last resort is different from something being forbidden.

I won't deny that the Conciliar Church has made a complete mockery of marriage with how they hand out annulments like Tootsie Rolls at planet fitness.

The entire conciliar church, especially under Bergoglio, is a huge fuckin joke.

What I am opposed to is what seems to be a creeping indifferentism. There are good hearted, sincere Novus Ordites, Trads Protestants, Orthos, etc. who likely pray and fast more than any of us here

However, knowing what the true Church and the true Faith is matters. Either the historical claims of the Roman Catholic Church regarding the role of the papacy is true, or it is not.

If it is true, then some form of traditionalism must be true, because Novus Ordo-ism isn't.

Either:

1. The Bishop Schneider/FSSP/diocesan V2 in light of tradition camp is right.
2. R&R
3. SV

One of those have to be right, for Catholicism to be true. 

If Catholicism is not true, then I have a motivation to find what the true Faith and the true Church is. I've opined that the "branch theorists," which are most EOs, serious High Church Anglicans, and Old Catholics hold.

5 minutes away from my house, a Ukrainian Rite former Abbot of an Eastern Monastery says a Divine Liturgy. Even sedes would accept him as valid as he was ordained in the Eastern Rite. This man has served as a confessor and director for me recently. My cousin and best man at my wedding, when I chose him to be my best man, was ROCOR. He has since become a trad Catholic. So trust me, I love and respect the East, especially Russian flavor of it. I've been to Russia. I actually had the privilege to sing a Divine Liturgy and it was a beautiful experience. Gospodiy Pomiluj. Tye bye, Gospodi. Etc.

So I have a tremendous amount of Respect for the East, and those easterners not formally members of the Catholic Church. That is why I posted that earlier video of Coulombe, as I think it presents an interesting thesis.

There is an absolutely beautiful ROCOR cathedral 20 minutes away from me. Being ROCOR would make it easier for my family and I, in a sense. I wouldn't need to have to tell my son that Bergoglio and his predecessors since 1958 have all either been antipope usurpers or heretics somehow possessing the See, and that 99.9999 of the bullshit we see in "Catholic churches" worldwide are confused people who aren't really Catholic. See:

https://www.sfsobor.com/

If Catholicism is false and Orthodoxy is true, I should get my ass down there asap, and become a catechumen. I would be obliged before almighty God to actually do so.

That's why I don't buy into the "charity," dialogue, etc.

Hope that explains my take.

#16

Coffee and Donuts / Re: Members You Wish Would Not...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - Today at 02:02:34 PM

She'll be back, she needs the spotlight.

Which is fine, I could use a break.

#17

Traditional Catholic Discussion / Re: Fr. Ripperger: Avg. Layman...

Last post by Stubborn - Today at 01:28:53 PM

I agree with Fr. R.
I think 15 minutes is a good minimum; and one should look for opportunities to expand that time.
Spiritual reading is also excellent.
From my years on the trad forums, I really think that two things many trads lack: 1. Lack of knowledge of the Catholic faith; which could easily be remedied by reading even a page a day of a traditional Catechism.
2. Lack of prayer life. The responses on the other thread to a poster's inquiry as to advice on how to deepen one's spiritual life, was very consoling to read.

I agree Michael, 15 minutes is like an absolute minimum, or maybe if the person is ill or something.

Sloth as one of the seven deadly sins is primarily sloth in prayer, in not praying, and not praying when we can and should, or not praying enough, and sloth of our religious obligations in our pursuit of holiness.

Extreme laziness is a sin as well, but first and foremost the sin of Sloth pertains to laziness in our prayer and religious life, which leads to a faith that is lukewarm and eventually leads often to the loss of faith.

Many workaholics end up in hell, not because they were lazy, but because they had an altogether slothful prayer life.

Which reminds me of a sign I saw today - "Don't yell at lazy people, they didn't do anything!"

#18

General News and Discussion / Re: Russia Invades Ukraine

Last post by james03 - Today at 01:23:43 PM

Maximum Leader Putin has done well in hiding his intentions. I'm 50/50. On one hand rybar claims it is just an operation to establish a buffer zone to shutdown Team Unicorn terror shelling Belgorod. On the other hand Russia has really hammered the Ukrainian power grid which indicates a change. Freedom Force is also getting close to Kharkov and may try to surround it.

It will depend on Ukraine. If they throw reserves North, Russia will slow down there and hit in other places.

#19

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by LausTibiChriste - Today at 01:21:06 PM

L.T.B.
If a person dances around the edge of a cliff long enough, they will eventually fall off.
Advice from a friend.

What's your point?

I would say he was noticing Kasper-like ecumenism in the thread.

There is no Kasper like anything in here, and throwing around insults like that only serves to prove the point of some

[Divorce]

#20

Ask a Traditionalist / Re: Engaging with the Eastern ...

Last post by Michael Wilson - Today at 01:17:30 PM

True Charity is to speak the truth, especially the truth that God has revealed; He revealed that marriages are indisoluble; but the Orthodox's erroneous position on sacramental theology, allows them to grant divorce at least three times. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Marriage

Divorce

Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as indissoluble, and it condemns the breakdown of marriage as a sin and an evil. The Orthodox Church does permit remarriage after divorce in some cases, as an exception, a necessary concession to human sin. While condemning sin, the Church desires to help the sinners and to allow them another chance, with an act of economy. When a marriage has ceased to be a reality, the Orthodox Church faces the reality with philanthropia (loving kindness).
Second and third marriage

The Orthodox Church teaches that a second union "is tolerated only by condescension to human weakness (1 Corinthians 7:9). It may also be recognized as a second chance, given to a man or a woman, to enter into a real marriage in Christ when a first union was a mistake (for even Church blessing cannot always magically repair a human mistake!)."[3] In the service for a second marriage, some of the joyful ceremonies are omitted and replaced by penitential prayers, although the penitential prayers might be omitted if it is a first marriage for one of the spouses.[4]

The Church can also "allow a third marriage, but formally forbids a fourth."[5]

Valid marriages do not "cease to be a reality"; as Our Lord and St. Paul teach explicitly.
Next from the website of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada we read the following statement on the purpose of Holy Matrimony:https://www.uocc.ca/articles/an-orthodox-christian-perspective-on-the-mystery-of-marriage/

Purposes of Christian Marriage

The fundamental purpose of marriage is to attain holiness. Ultimately, the spouses grow together in Christ, to realize their God-likeness [cf., Gen 1:27] and to actualize their salvation. The couple is called to continuously create and recreate a communion of mutual love, trust, personal fulfilment, and self-sacrifice. This is achieved by the couple inviting the active presence of God into their relationship. The Holy Spirit of God leads husband and wife to sanctification and glorification of God through, and with, their relationship.

Also, in the service of matrimony, one can identify numerous other secondary purposes for marriage: mutual assistance, interpersonal faithfulness, procreation and nurturing children, the realization of each spouse's sexuality, etc. In short, the purpose of marriage includes the entirety of human existence and experience. All that each spouse is, and experiences individually and together, may be lifted up to God and may become a means of realizing salvation.

The primary purpose of Holy Matrimony is the procreation and education of the children; the secondary purposes are subject to the primary. The above definition is why a valid marriage can be annulled in Orthodoxy and in the N.O.M. Because once there is no longer this "community of love and sanctification" then the primary (Orthodox) purpose of matrimony has ceased and the marriage can be dissolved.

Divorce

According to Orthodox teaching a marriage can be dissolved only through the "death" of one of the spouses. This death is understood either as physical death or the moral/religious death involved in denying the spiritual significance or moral foundation of the marital communion (e.g., adultery, chronic abuse, apostasy).

While marriage is to be used to realize heaven on earth, the Church understands that it also might be corrupted into an instrument of exploitation, oppression, destruction, even death. Thus, the harsh and disruptive nature of sin reaches even into this most hallowed of human relationships. In this case, when the relationship is not germane to the personal spiritual, emotional, or physical well-being of the spouses, the Church will recognize the civil divorce of the couple.

Always, though, divorce is viewed as "radical surgery" — an invasive and disruptive force, which contradicts the mystical: character of the marital union. For this reason, after a divorce the Church encourages a time of emotional and spiritual therapy: counsel and repentance, which allows a person to work through the grief of a lost relationship.

The main purpose of divorce is to overcome all that which is destructive in the relationship and to allow each spouse to travel the path of sanctification. Remarriage, as mentioned above, is not generally counselled. However, remarriage is allowed as a means of overcoming loneliness, alienation, abandonment, and difficulty in maintaining celibacy. Thus, the Church shows Her deep concern for the person, giving him/her another opportunity to enter into the mystery of love, holiness, and personhood in marital communion.

For the sake of order and internal integrity, though, the Church allows only two subsequent remarriages should a first (and possibly a second) marriage end. Moreover, the second and third marriage service takes on a more penitential character.