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#1

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Message to Vigano and Burk...

Last post by Aethel - Today at 02:50:06 PM

"Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding. The rest of the things which the sacred Council sets forth, inasmuch as they are the teaching of the Church's supreme magisterium, ought to be accepted and embraced by each and every one of Christ's faithful according to the mind of the sacred Council. The mind of the Council becomes known either from the matter treated or from its manner of speaking, in accordance with the norms of theological interpretation."

The Vatican has on several occasions made it very clear you have to accept the totality of Vatican II to be in communion with the Pope, and several documents like Unitatis Redintegratio state this:

"Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God."

#2

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Message to Vigano and Burk...

Last post by Aethel - Today at 02:47:15 PM

Both the neoconservatives and (some) sedevacantists hold this false idea that the authority of the pope is absolute. The former blindly obey and use chainsaws to destroy marble altars and replace them with Lutheran tables, the latter say: "since it's obviously wrong, it can't be by the true pope." The moderate position is the one by the SSPX, who simply and respectfully disobey everything that contradicts or harms the faith.

If this was really true, then why did nobody challenge the Pope's changes to the Death Penalty or Same-Sex Blessings? All nominal Catholics submitted to it unquestioningly, some like Trent Horn, Jimmy Akins, and Michael Lofton all gaslit Catholics that "this was always Catholic teaching" or "Pope Francis really didn't change anything"

#3

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Message to Vigano and Burk...

Last post by Aethel - Today at 02:43:56 PM

Popes and bishops are humans like all of us, they make errors all the time. They are as susceptible to sin as any other man. The infallibility of the pope and the Church applies only to dogma, because this is not something that pope has made up, but something that God reveals to mankind. Consequently, the authority of the pope is not absolute. For example, a pope might try to command me to worship pagan gods (that Mama-Pikachu idol, or whatever it is called), but he simply does not have that authority.

Wrong. This is a Trad myth, too. Vatican I explicitly says that the Pope is infallible in:
- Extraordinary Magisterium (dogma and extraordinary decrees)
- Ordinary Universal Magisterium (when the Pope repeats what is the infallible universal teaching of the Church)
- To the extent he binds the Church in morals and doctrine via his Ordinary Magisterium, which you have to submit to with docility (meaning that while a Pope could make a doctrinal mistake or a historical error here or there, he could never via the Magisterium lead a Catholic into false moral or doctrinal teaching).




And even if we dispute this, whatever - phenomenologically or practically, you know that Catholics actually agree with my position, because every time the Pope makes a change to doctrine or teaching, all Catholics know that they can't challenge it.

And every time Pope Francis does something ridiculous like bless same sex unions or worship a fertility Amazonian idol, a bunch of Popesplainers come out of the woodwork to make casuistry out of heresy.


I mean the day Pope Francis blessed Same Sex Unions, Trent Horn went on the Daily Wire to gaslight the general public that Pope Francis really didn't change anything.

#4

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Message to Vigano and Burk...

Last post by Aethel - Today at 02:40:17 PM

You are shifting goal posts.  The question on the table was how was it that the bishops went along with it.  Various posters have given reasons for that.  It is multi-faceted.  The question wasn't: "Is Vatican II harmless?".  Clearly it is not.  It's a horror show that needs to be put on the Index.

You opened the door by arguing that Vatican II was more of a swindle than inherently flawed. And I responded. You could say it's imprudent to detour like that, but we are on the internet.

#5

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Message to Vigano and Burk...

Last post by Aethel - Today at 02:38:00 PM

Can you tell me one dogma of Vatican II? No, because it was a pastoral council. So how could it possibly be binding?

It doesn't need to define "dogma" (in the ex cathedra sense) to be doctrinally binding, per Vatican I - you must submit doctrinally "with docility" even to ordinary magisterial teachings, meaning that Rome could not lead one into sin or heresy with its decrees. Nonetheless, Vatican II taught, contrary to previous teaching:

- The Mystical Body of Christ Subsists in the Roman Catholic Church (with implications in other parts of the document that it exists in other Christian bodies; even if just implied, Cardinal Ratzinger under the CDF explicitly taught this via the Magisterium, calling the Eastern Orthodox Church a "Sister Church").
- Generic Deism (Catholics, Muslims, and Jews worship the God of Abraham, one merciful God)
- Ecumenism (Condemned magisterially by Mortalium Animos and the 1917 Code of Canon Law, plus 2 millenia of Church history)
- The Church's understanding of doctrine can "mature in understanding", condemned by Pascendi Dominici Gregis which explicitly condemned the notion that objective divine revelation could be yet hidden or unraveled through subjective circumstances (and Pope Francis has used this one text to change Church teaching on the death penalty, adultery, and same-sex blessings)


I would also argue that the idea implicit in the liturgical reform changes, that the 1962 Missal was somehow deficient and not in the spirit of the Apostles, and needed to be made more Apostolic, is also explicitly condemned by the Council of Trent, which anathematizes those who say the approved rites of the Catholic Church are deficient or flawed.


These are all explicit changes that were all previously condemned by the Popes.

#6

General News and Discussion / Re: Russia Invades Ukraine

Last post by Deirdre - Today at 01:58:25 PM

That's extremely disturbing.

We just sent them another $60 Billion.

I meant the picture.

#7

General Catholic Discussion / Re: Message to Vigano and Burk...

Last post by Kathleen - Today at 01:44:47 PM

Call an imperfect Council, confirm that Bergoglio is a manifest heretic, and end this scandal.

Absolutely.

And while those that are never happy with anything less than precisely what they want are being obnoxious about it -- I'm very glad to see a bunch of the mainstream Catholic trad laity's open letter (on Rorate and Life Site) asking for precisely this.

I'm sick up to my eyebrows of the sneering that goes on. It doesn't help. At all.

It marks a turning point where mainstream voices are finally calling for a council.

It is not up to us as laity to determine the ruling on this mountain of misery.

So in reality it doesn't much matter if we're entirely agreed on WHY.

Our duty is to PUSH the princes to do their duty and call a council.

It should be encouraged.

And the snide crud from some corners need to knock it off.

#8

General News and Discussion / Re: Russia Invades Ukraine

Last post by james03 - Today at 12:35:09 PM

That's extremely disturbing.

We just sent them another $60 Billion.

#9

General News and Discussion / Re: Russia Invades Ukraine

Last post by james03 - Today at 12:33:55 PM

Kind of interesting.  The Russians are marking their vehicles with a ruin from ancient Russia.  The ancient Russians used this ruin when they went to war against the ancient Khazars, also known as the Ashkanazi.

Might be a coincidence, or they might be announcing who they are going to smite with a mighty smiting.

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news-selections/world-news/russia-paints-new-military-insignia-on-invading-force-same-symbol-used-in-past-wars-against-khazaria

#10

General News and Discussion / Re: Russia Invades Ukraine

Last post by Deirdre - Today at 12:28:07 PM

That's extremely disturbing.