My liberal church finally went over the edge.

[diaduit]

Where on this or other thread did trad parents say it was okay to remain inside the church with a noisy baby.
Unanimously we all agreed and have abided by the unwritten rule, baby makes noise mama or Papa steps outside.

I think that the posters who are objecting to noisy babies at Mass are reacting to real-life rather than to posters on this thread. To the extent that they disagree with some posters on this thread, it is probably because they see those posters as supporting the real-life people at their chapel who stay in church with noisy babies.

This morning, for example, I went to the chapel which has many noisy babies and many parents who don't believe in taking them out. The pastor of this chapel also prefers large ceiling fans over air conditioning, so there is a high-decibel white-noise background level from the fans which is then punctuated by baby cries. There was a 2-year old child sitting in the pew behind me who now and then let out an ear-piercing scream. His 4-year old sister would then talk for a long time telling him to be quiet.

Their pew was not exceptional. There were noisier pews scattered throughout the chapel. The elderly pastor is nearly deaf, so I don't think he realizes what is going on. For worshippers, however, you can't have any idea what is being said if you don't follow your missal.

Personally, I'm used to this kind of chaos, and I'm pretty much able to filter it out and focus on praying the Mass. I can understand, however, that there are others who are simply unable to tolerate this kind of situation.

I would find that very very difficult alright.

Today my 4 yr old sat very still during sung mass and a long sermon  playing with his hands at times and I had to turn him back towards the altar once. It was his first time off mine or hubby's knee . 4 years training for this result.

[bigbadtrad]

Still, one benefit of such spiteful and less than honest responses...

Oh please your name calling and blatantly false characterizations show you to be what you accuse me of. Your next post calling this feminism and child worship shows you cannot argue in the absence of facts.

What Max just described is something as a father would confront. I would walk up to the father and mother of a screaming child and tell them to be quiet in a nice way. I've done it before many times. I let them know it's an bad example for my children. Usually I apologize to them afterwards because I know it's difficult for everyone and explain myself.

If I had a wild child in a church I talk to the parents. I just did so a few weeks ago, but I do it with kindness and compassion. I've reprimanded my father for allowing my nephew to talk in church.

The difference is I don't think they are at war with me. I don't think it is against tradition or against the fathers. And I certainly don't think I'm above it all. We live in a broken world and you take yourself too seriously.

[orate]

Awkward wanted tradition and rejected it, wanted a doctor of the Church and got one and rejected that.

How dare you. 

Still, one benefit of such spiteful and less than honest responses as yours have repeatedly been, is that we get to see what nastiness lies beneath so many Trad claims of piety and humility.

How dare he what?  bigbadtrad gave you an example from tradition and an example from a doctor of the Church, both of which you found unsatisfactory.  I do not see how his responses are spiteful and less than honest.

You come across as attacking anyone who disagrees with your OPINION about wee ones at Mass,  and then feign being put upon.  It is very off-putting.

[orate]

It's just occurred to me what this is.

It's Trad style feminism and child-centredness.

So Matthew 18:1-10, Our Lord's own words, is "trad style feminism and child-centeredness."

Again how does your response above contribute to adult debate? It does not.  "Suffer the children to come unto Me."

[MundaCorMeum]

But the default position from the most vocal posters here, seems to be outrage that parents of young children should be expected to do anything, because the church doesn't have a law forbidding babies and toddlers (NOT children) at Mass attendance, opposed to the duty of fulfilling one's Sunday obligation.

Aeternitus, I think you may have misunderstood what some of us are trying to say.  Speaking for myself, this is not my default position at all.  I don't get the impression it is anyone else's, either, but they are free to clarify for themselves. 

My opinion is more that if the ideal is to leave younger children (babies and toddlers are, in fact, children, too) home, then given the crisis and the lack of Masses available, we have an exception currently.  When I am visiting my Mom out of town, we are able to split Masses and leave the younger children.  That is exactly what we did today, in fact.  It's not possible to do split Masses when we are at home, though. Neither are we able to procure a babysitter.  Neither can I just stay home indefinitely, which is what it would take otherwise.

Well, if one lives too far from church that obligation doesn't apply and it then becomes a choice.  How far is too far is a discussion one has with one's priest, so that the particular circumstances of the family can be taken into consideration also

I actually remember reading what the Church says about Mass attendance and distance.  I believe She does have a set distance for dispensation.  I can't recall at the moment exactly what it is, but I'm pretty positive that the 45 minute commute my family makes is not up for a dispensation of our Sunday obligation.  Therefore, if we miss Mass, we incur mortal sin.  It's not worth the risk. 

[Gardener]

If one is willing to drive X miles for Y thing, then I fail to see how they can rationalize not driving X +/- for something literally infinitely more important.

It's not like we are living in the days of walking only, or covered wagons.

My wife's grandmother literally, as a kid and the only practicing Catholic in her family, used to walk 5 miles from Agua Fria, NM to the church in Santa Fe for Mass.

At 3 mph, probably not an inconceivable speed for a young girl to walk such a distance in such terrain, would have taken 1 hour and 40 minutes.

I don't buy the time argument. I might buy the gas argument. But if such a thing as money for gas is causing someone to miss Mass, please send me a PM and we'll discuss your local average gas prices, average miles per gallon one gets in their vehicle, the distance driven, and figure the average monthly cost. I'll gladly send that $ to said person(s) in order to keep them from missing out on literally the most beautiful thing on earth.

Sorry, I have yet to figure out a way to pay a toddler or infant to shut up though.

[awkwardcustomer]

Awkward wanted tradition and rejected it, wanted a doctor of the Church and got one and rejected that.

How dare you. 

Still, one benefit of such spiteful and less than honest responses as yours have repeatedly been, is that we get to see what nastiness lies beneath so many Trad claims of piety and humility.

How dare he what?  bigbadtrad gave you an example from tradition and an example from a doctor of the Church, both of which you found unsatisfactory.  I do not see how his responses are spiteful and less than honest.

You come across as attacking anyone who disagrees with your OPINION about wee ones at Mass,  and then feign being put upon.  It is very off-putting.

You haven't read the posts in which I repeatedly corrected what bigbadtrad was claiming I'd said.

BBT has been misrepresenting my words for several posts now and takes no notice when I explain what I meant.

[awkwardcustomer]

It's just occurred to me what this is.

It's Trad style feminism and child-centredness.

So Matthew 18:1-10, Our Lord's own words, is "trad style feminism and child-centeredness."

Again how does your response above contribute to adult debate? It does not.  "Suffer the children to come unto Me."

Your use of the "Suffer the little children" quote is a misuse of Scripture intended to close down the argument.  It is irrelevant to the discussion here.

And I think there definitely is a strong impulse amongst many Trad mothers to assert their wills in this situation, and a tendency to characterise anyone who objects as a "curmudgeon, old MAN".  This description of me has been used by a poster on this thread.  If a secular woman had said that, you'd all be accusing her of being a dreadful feminist.

And as for child-centredness - how can you deny it?  How would you describe a situation in which women insist on dictating the conditions under which Catholics must experience Mass and use the 'suffer the little children' quote to shout them down?

[awkwardcustomer]

Today my 4 yr old sat very still during sung mass and a long sermon  playing with his hands at times and I had to turn him back towards the altar once. It was his first time off mine or hubby's knee . 4 years training for this result.

I'm sorry, but that's a lot of time at Mass spent in concerning yourself with something other than the Holy Sacrifice.

[orate]

You haven't read the posts in which I repeatedly corrected what bigbadtrad was claiming I'd said.

BBT has been misrepresenting my words for several posts now and takes no notice when I explain what I meant.

Yes, I have read all the posts on this thread--and the previous one--and I can't see how he has  misrepresented anything.  If anything you have misrepresented all of us who not only think it is uncharitable to tell others to purposely disobey the Law of the Church to attend Mass on Sunday, but also think that children of any age should be welcome at Mass.

You accuse us of extolling the virtue of noise and disruption of Holy Mass, and take no notice when we try to explain otherwise.  Just because I think that it is a positive good to expose children at a very young age to the beauty of the Mass, it does not mean that I enjoy unnecessary noise and disruption.  I, and others, have said this repeatedly.  But YOU refuse to listen.

You are the one misrepresenting us.

If you want to debate whether very young children should attend Holy Mass, that is all well and good, as long as it is done in a respectful and adult manner as others who share your opinion have managed to do.

[orate]

How would you describe a situation in which {a} wom{a}n insists on dictating the conditions under which Catholics must experience Mass...?

Exactly what you are doing. 

Especially by saying, "I'm sorry, but that's a lot of time at Mass spent in concerning yourself with something other than the Holy Sacrifice."  I'm sorry, but tending to one's children's religious education on how to behave at Mass, is not inconsistent with concerning oneself with the Holy Sacrifice.

[orate]

"And I think there definitely is a strong impulse amongst many Trad mothers to assert their wills in this situation,"

Awk--you, too, suffer this impulse to assert your will in this situation.

There can be honest disagreement about whether very young children belong at Mass, without accusing each other of nefarious motives.

[mikemac]

...
I watched my daughter start crying almost 3 years ago during a candle light Christmas Mass when she was not even 9. My children from my oldest to my youngest thought it was one of the most beautiful moments of their lives (the youngest was around 2) and talked about it to this day as one of the highlights of their life. They talked about it daily for weeks and the next Christmas it was one of the most anticipated moments of their year.
...

...
Today my 4 yr old sat very still during sung mass and a long sermon  playing with his hands at times and I had to turn him back towards the altar once. It was his first time off mine or hubby's knee . 4 years training for this result.

Thanks for sharing folks.  I love reading accounts like these.  It makes you feel like there is a bright future for the Church.  You know, because they are the future of the Church.

[diaduit]

Today my 4 yr old sat very still during sung mass and a long sermon  playing with his hands at times and I had to turn him back towards the altar once. It was his first time off mine or hubby's knee . 4 years training for this result.

I'm sorry, but that's a lot of time at Mass spent in concerning yourself with something other than the Holy Sacrifice.

Correct, its called duty of State

[awkwardcustomer]

Thanks for sharing folks.  I love reading accounts like these.  It makes you feel like there is a bright future for the Church.  You know, because they are the future of the Church.

How very Modern of you, mikemac, sacrificing the peace and reverence of the Mass today for a future demographic triumph that will never happen.

This is where Tradism falls flat.  There is nothing Traditional about such a position.

The end does not justify the means.