Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 7233 times)

Offline orate

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #360 on: October 08, 2019, 10:20:37 PM »
“Make a sacrifice by not saying the nasty word or answering an insulting remark. For in that way, we lower ourselves to the vulgarity we condemn. No one will ever get ahead of us so long as he stays behind to kick us.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen (Wartime Prayer Book)
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #361 on: October 08, 2019, 11:24:39 PM »

I would point out that a child who is unruly beyond what is considered normal has not had enough discipline, and needs more, especially more CONSISTENT discipline.

You have arbitrarily decided for the entire human race "what is considered normal."  You actually quantified it.  But you are not a universal or absolute authority on the discipline of children.

I also think you don't understand my point:  It is that I refuse to judge other mothers until I see plainly that they are unable or unwilling to discipline their children.  I pointed out much earlier in the thread an example, at a N.O. Mass, of a truly clueless mother, who in that case was unwilling to discipline, considered her children's antics a form of entertainment, albeit misplaced, and cared nothing for her neighbors.  The child utterly derailed the Mass, which was a great act of selfishness on the mother's part.

But rather than limit your condemnation to such clear violations that would probably be universally criticized, you're willing to set an arbitrary time limit and assume that anyone who can't meet that must be an ineffective or weak mother.  This is not about me.  (Yes, thank you, Davis, my children are not tiny any more!)  And what was more difficult for me was not my child's noise -- she wasn't very noisy -- but her restlessness, because I knew that would be distracting to others.

I'm not an incompetent mother.  I'm known for being custodial, watchful, and alert. I've been told my children are exceptionally well behaved and always were in school.  I don't need your advice, and wouldn't have needed it when my younger was very little.

But even that is not the point.  it's that I am simply unwilling to assess anyone's parenting abilities until I have sufficient evidence.  Spending 11 minutes with a child outside of the pew is not sufficient evidence on which to base a negative judgment.

Quote
There are way way too many parents who talk about how they have tried "everything" and their child is still unruly.

Correct, but it is not always evident in a church setting who those parents are.  I also don't think you've read the thread from the start because some of us covered various situations which we do find intolerable -- such as (for me) fathers of large families leaving 100% of the pew oversight to his wife whom we assume has only two hands.  I don't consider it "manly" of men to do this. I consider it selfish and lazy.  Fortunately, this only applies to a couple of fathers in my parish.

I have learned that overall, I need to work more on my own level of tolerance and charitable assumptions than others need to work on allowing me a perfect Mass experience with children who behave like angelic beings (which most of them do, actually, at very early Masses).

I hope someday you will get there as well.
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #362 on: October 09, 2019, 06:30:35 AM »
This is all being very over thought.
Its nobody's business what parents do with their children, or where they bring them, as long as their children are not disruptive to others.

If during mass, a parent is too lazy and rude to prevent their children from disrupting others, if not EVERYBODY in the chapel for that matter, a priest should address the issue with them after mass. If the behavior continues, those in the parish should not associate with the rude disruptive parents, and use the strength of social pressure to correct their selfish behavior. Make them feel like THAT family, you know, the family that cant concern themselves with their parishioners well being, but want to be included in the parish, and enjoy all this has to offer.
"Hey, nevermind the fact that I sat idle while my shrieking 18 month old gave you a headache at mass this morning. Wanna show me that rental you were talking about? You're still deducting $100 from rent for parishioners, right?"

I actually think this is on the mark. 
 
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Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #363 on: October 09, 2019, 09:24:08 AM »
Ugh, if you say that we find it "essential" again, I'm gonna scream. We have been down this road...no option...
You are single, your job is to save your soul. I am a mother, my vocation is to save my children's souls, by which act I will save my own. Succinct.

Yet another outburst from a wounded ego, just like so many others on this thread.  You say I have a "job" but you have a "vocation".  This is despite the fact that the Church considers the single life to be a vocation.  What arrogance. 

It's not entirely your fault. You have been encouraged by misguided, spineless priests to believe that you belong to a special category of Catholic who is going to save the Church - the Traditional Catholic Family who must be appeased by lesser Catholics like me.  This probably explains your selfish and angry responses on this thread to any challenge to this absurd fantasy.

And enough of your "ughs". Most Trads I am familiar with live in cities or close to them. They have a number of TLMs to choose from which are 1hr or less away.  And they have family support nearby.  And they still insist on taking their babies and toddlers to Mass.  You live miles away from everything.  Who's problem is that, exactly?

I've sorry I don't agree with the elevated role you have been foolishly allocated and which you obviously embrace.  It must be hard to have your ego bubble pricked.

You have my sympathies.

But like so many other posters on this thread, you haven't a clue what's been lost.  There are exceptions, thank goodness, but as usual, those who insist that babies and toddlers should be at Mass always shout the loudest.

Don't take this as an insult at all, it really isn't meant to be. However I am pretty sure...being "single" is not a vocation. Dedicating yourself as a single person (consecrated virgin/etc) witnessing to Christ in the world is a vocation. Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation. These are perhaps not "vocations" per se, as in monastic or priestly callings, but the "vocations" many saints and spiritual writers talk about.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 09:25:50 AM by coffeeandcigarette »
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #364 on: October 09, 2019, 09:39:42 AM »
Ugh, if you say that we find it "essential" again, I'm gonna scream. We have been down this road...no option...
You are single, your job is to save your soul. I am a mother, my vocation is to save my children's souls, by which act I will save my own. Succinct.

Yet another outburst from a wounded ego, just like so many others on this thread.  You say I have a "job" but you have a "vocation".  This is despite the fact that the Church considers the single life to be a vocation.  What arrogance. 

It's not entirely your fault. You have been encouraged by misguided, spineless priests to believe that you belong to a special category of Catholic who is going to save the Church - the Traditional Catholic Family who must be appeased by lesser Catholics like me.  This probably explains your selfish and angry responses on this thread to any challenge to this absurd fantasy.

And enough of your "ughs". Most Trads I am familiar with live in cities or close to them. They have a number of TLMs to choose from which are 1hr or less away.  And they have family support nearby.  And they still insist on taking their babies and toddlers to Mass.  You live miles away from everything.  Who's problem is that, exactly?

I've sorry I don't agree with the elevated role you have been foolishly allocated and which you obviously embrace.  It must be hard to have your ego bubble pricked.

You have my sympathies.

But like so many other posters on this thread, you haven't a clue what's been lost.  There are exceptions, thank goodness, but as usual, those who insist that babies and toddlers should be at Mass always shout the loudest.

First, see first bold portion. Think for just a minute about what it is you think we lost after Vatican II. Now think about the largest group of trad Catholics that are living and working together with a convent, school, church, and essentially Catholic town. Now think about the trad seminaries and convents that are bursting at the seams. Every vibrant trad parish is full of families, priests come from families, nuns come from families, monks come from families. Why exactly is it that you have a problem looking at this from a demographic standpoint? The Archbishop himself said that families were saving the church, families were the future of the Faith. I am not saying families should be worshiped. (I went over this before you and refused to answer my posts)

Even if the answer to the future was not demographics what is the solution? I know you are saying that we need converts, that is fine. I love converts!! A lot of what you have said though seems like you don't want big families (I also said this to you already). Do you think we need a church full of single converts? Would they then not get married? Is the whole future about conversion; like every twenty years we just have to convert a few hundred thousand more single people and that is the future? Even if the future was conversions, those people would become Catholic, and raise Catholic families right?

Secondly, see second bold portion.  :deadhorse:
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #365 on: October 09, 2019, 09:42:17 AM »
Hey why not open another can of worms.  She's already got the record for the longest derailment of a thread in the forums history.  By just continually repeating herself to boot.  All she is doing is continually trying to push buttons.  You should just ignore her so this stupid thread can die.

So why don't you lead by example and stop posting your nasty comments?  Because I'm not going to stop responding to the bile you and others keep directing at me.

On two occasions I have been ready to stop posting on this thread and, after a day or two, there's been another bunch of posts which insult me and misrepresent what I have said in true toddler tantrum like fashion.  And these will usually include an especially nasty post by you.

So go on then.. off you go, you unbearably unpleasant man?

Be the beginning of the end that you wish to see and depart now.

That is really unfair. I actually responded two or three times to you with neutral thoughtful posts and you ignored them completely. Don't ignore the neutral or even nice posts and then get crabby about the mean ones...that is hardly fair.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #366 on: October 09, 2019, 11:01:26 AM »
Don't take this as an insult at all, it really isn't meant to be. However I am pretty sure...being "single" is not a vocation. Dedicating yourself as a single person (consecrated virgin/etc) witnessing to Christ in the world is a vocation. Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation. These are perhaps not "vocations" per se, as in monastic or priestly callings, but the "vocations" many saints and spiritual writers talk about.

I was annoyed with you pulling rank, although you are not the only person to have done this.  I mean, look at what else you said here.  "Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation."  Can you not see the disdain in that comment, or is it me who is taking things too personally?  At any rate, vocation or state of life - I don't care.  But I'm not so keen on being associated with the idea of being single simply because I couldn't get a man.  Would you?

Besides, according to the link posted by Mundacormeum, marriage isn't a vocation either.  It's a state of life.

Quote
This may very well be opening another can of worms, but....technically, the traditional teaching is that neither marriage nor single life is a vocation.  They are states in life that one may choose, if they are not called to either the vocations of the priesthood or religious life:

https://catholicism.org/is-marriage-a-vocation.html

This surprised me, so I clicked on another Catholic website which said that marriage IS a vocation.

https://faithandmarriage.org/marriage-is-a-vocation/

So I'm none the wiser on marriage as vocation or state of life, but I'm fine with state of life for not being called to marriage.

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #367 on: October 09, 2019, 11:20:19 AM »
Hey why not open another can of worms.  She's already got the record for the longest derailment of a thread in the forums history.  By just continually repeating herself to boot.  All she is doing is continually trying to push buttons.  You should just ignore her so this stupid thread can die.

So why don't you lead by example and stop posting your nasty comments?  Because I'm not going to stop responding to the bile you and others keep directing at me.

On two occasions I have been ready to stop posting on this thread and, after a day or two, there's been another bunch of posts which insult me and misrepresent what I have said in true toddler tantrum like fashion.  And these will usually include an especially nasty post by you.

So go on then.. off you go, you unbearably unpleasant man?

Be the beginning of the end that you wish to see and depart now.

That is really unfair. I actually responded two or three times to you with neutral thoughtful posts and you ignored them completely. Don't ignore the neutral or even nice posts and then get crabby about the mean ones...that is hardly fair.

It's impossible for me to answer every post, even the nice ones.  There have been a number of posts I would have like to reply to, but I didn't have the time or energy.

Besides, some forum members want this discussion to end.  And you've just asked me three more questions, which is fine, and I assumed you wanted a response.  I'm just saying that the option is available to branch off into a pleasant discussion about states of life and vocations and leave this touchy subject alone.  If you like.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 11:22:45 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #368 on: October 09, 2019, 12:48:34 PM »
Don't take this as an insult at all, it really isn't meant to be. However I am pretty sure...being "single" is not a vocation. Dedicating yourself as a single person (consecrated virgin/etc) witnessing to Christ in the world is a vocation. Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation. These are perhaps not "vocations" per se, as in monastic or priestly callings, but the "vocations" many saints and spiritual writers talk about.

I was annoyed with you pulling rank, although you are not the only person to have done this.  I mean, look at what else you said here.  "Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation."  Can you not see the disdain in that comment, or is it me who is taking things too personally?  At any rate, vocation or state of life - I don't care.  But I'm not so keen on being associated with the idea of being single simply because I couldn't get a man.  Would you?

Besides, according to the link posted by Mundacormeum, marriage isn't a vocation either.  It's a state of life.

Quote
This may very well be opening another can of worms, but....technically, the traditional teaching is that neither marriage nor single life is a vocation.  They are states in life that one may choose, if they are not called to either the vocations of the priesthood or religious life:

https://catholicism.org/is-marriage-a-vocation.html

This surprised me, so I clicked on another Catholic website which said that marriage IS a vocation.

https://faithandmarriage.org/marriage-is-a-vocation/

So I'm none the wiser on marriage as vocation or state of life, but I'm fine with state of life for not being called to marriage.

Like I said, it is not disdainful and it is not meant to be mean. There are plenty of LOVELY single people in the world who might get married if the opportunity presents itself, they may not. They are not sitting around desperate to get married, they may even be thinking they probably don't want to get married. I know plenty of women like this. All of those things are fine. My only point was that unless they say "I am definitely not getting married, I am consecrating myself to God as a single person" then it isn't a "vocation" yet; it is just them being single.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #369 on: October 09, 2019, 02:30:21 PM »
Don't take this as an insult at all, it really isn't meant to be. However I am pretty sure...being "single" is not a vocation. Dedicating yourself as a single person (consecrated virgin/etc) witnessing to Christ in the world is a vocation. Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation. These are perhaps not "vocations" per se, as in monastic or priestly callings, but the "vocations" many saints and spiritual writers talk about.

I was annoyed with you pulling rank, although you are not the only person to have done this.  I mean, look at what else you said here.  "Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation."  Can you not see the disdain in that comment, or is it me who is taking things too personally?  At any rate, vocation or state of life - I don't care.  But I'm not so keen on being associated with the idea of being single simply because I couldn't get a man.  Would you?

Besides, according to the link posted by Mundacormeum, marriage isn't a vocation either.  It's a state of life.

Quote
This may very well be opening another can of worms, but....technically, the traditional teaching is that neither marriage nor single life is a vocation.  They are states in life that one may choose, if they are not called to either the vocations of the priesthood or religious life:

https://catholicism.org/is-marriage-a-vocation.html

This surprised me, so I clicked on another Catholic website which said that marriage IS a vocation.

https://faithandmarriage.org/marriage-is-a-vocation/

So I'm none the wiser on marriage as vocation or state of life, but I'm fine with state of life for not being called to marriage.

Like I said, it is not disdainful and it is not meant to be mean. There are plenty of LOVELY single people in the world who might get married if the opportunity presents itself, they may not. They are not sitting around desperate to get married, they may even be thinking they probably don't want to get married. I know plenty of women like this. All of those things are fine. My only point was that unless they say "I am definitely not getting married, I am consecrating myself to God as a single person" then it isn't a "vocation" yet; it is just them being single.

Okay.

I've been wanting to ask you - is your coffeeandcigarette user name meant to be ironic, or do you actually enjoy a coffee and a cigarette from time to time?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #370 on: October 10, 2019, 11:28:52 AM »
Don't take this as an insult at all, it really isn't meant to be. However I am pretty sure...being "single" is not a vocation. Dedicating yourself as a single person (consecrated virgin/etc) witnessing to Christ in the world is a vocation. Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation. These are perhaps not "vocations" per se, as in monastic or priestly callings, but the "vocations" many saints and spiritual writers talk about.

I was annoyed with you pulling rank, although you are not the only person to have done this.  I mean, look at what else you said here.  "Waiting around to get married and then it never happens...not a vocation."  Can you not see the disdain in that comment, or is it me who is taking things too personally?  At any rate, vocation or state of life - I don't care.  But I'm not so keen on being associated with the idea of being single simply because I couldn't get a man.  Would you?

Besides, according to the link posted by Mundacormeum, marriage isn't a vocation either.  It's a state of life.

Quote
This may very well be opening another can of worms, but....technically, the traditional teaching is that neither marriage nor single life is a vocation.  They are states in life that one may choose, if they are not called to either the vocations of the priesthood or religious life:

https://catholicism.org/is-marriage-a-vocation.html

This surprised me, so I clicked on another Catholic website which said that marriage IS a vocation.

https://faithandmarriage.org/marriage-is-a-vocation/

So I'm none the wiser on marriage as vocation or state of life, but I'm fine with state of life for not being called to marriage.

Like I said, it is not disdainful and it is not meant to be mean. There are plenty of LOVELY single people in the world who might get married if the opportunity presents itself, they may not. They are not sitting around desperate to get married, they may even be thinking they probably don't want to get married. I know plenty of women like this. All of those things are fine. My only point was that unless they say "I am definitely not getting married, I am consecrating myself to God as a single person" then it isn't a "vocation" yet; it is just them being single.

Okay.

I've been wanting to ask you - is your coffeeandcigarette user name meant to be ironic, or do you actually enjoy a coffee and a cigarette from time to time?

When I was in uni, and throughout my life, I have seen people trying to be "intellectual." Sitting around smoking in cafes and talking about Kant, or whatever they learned five seconds ago in class...LOL. It is ironic. It is a reminder not to let myself get either too involved, or too pompous. Also, a reminder to hardly ever come on here and indulge my love of debate and Cath chat. I feel like these forums are a blessing and curse. On one hand, they give isolated trads (all trads...lol) a chance to talk about important issues, vent, and empathize. On the other hand, they are an opportunity to spend hours a day bitching about the church, and feeling very superior, while what they really need to be doing to grow in holiness is spend time in prayer. How many people on forums feel really catholic because they discuss "issues" all the time, but hardly ever lead their family in prayer, crack open a spiritual book, or go to adoration. I think a little less chat, a little more action would be good. What example should people set for their children? Loving God in prayer and growing in holiness, or chatting about the Church/world and getting more angry, bitter, and hopeless by the year? So there is the deep reason, LOL, for my silly forum name. Now, since I have totally over indulged myself in this particular topic...I should probably go away for a while. My normal logins here are once-monthly for a few minutes, but as you know, I've been very bad this week. ;)
 
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