Author Topic: Latin question  (Read 9040 times)

Offline Daniel

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Latin question
« on: March 12, 2014, 09:03:58 AM »
What is the difference between "ae" and "oe"?  For example, I sometimes see "heaven" spelled "caelum" and other times spelled "coelum".  Are they interchangeable?

Also, just making sure, but the "ae" and "oe" are interchangeable with the "æ" and "œ" ligatures, correct?
 

Offline Ancilla Domini

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 12:00:20 PM »
No, they are not interchangeable. In Classical Latin ae and oe represent two different sounds. Caelus was the Classical Latin word for heaven. In the Middle Ages these two sounds merged such that they were pronounced the same way. As a result medieval scribes sometimes confused the two.

As for the ligature, that is a medieval writing convention. Some scribes used it and some did not. But you will not find it in Classical Latin, except where later scribes have imposed it in copying texts from the Classical period.
 

Offline drummerboy

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 04:33:17 PM »
No, they are not interchangeable. In Classical Latin ae and oe represent two different sounds. Caelus was the Classical Latin word for heaven. In the Middle Ages these two sounds merged such that they were pronounced the same way. As a result medieval scribes sometimes confused the two.

As for the ligature, that is a medieval writing convention. Some scribes used it and some did not. But you will not find it in Classical Latin, except where later scribes have imposed it in copying texts from the Classical period.

But the devil made them do it... lol!
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Offline perdurabit

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 06:08:08 PM »
Funny....oe and ae are still distinctly different and the ligatures still used in English English.  As in onomatopoeia and mediaeval.

They're also still used in classical Latin on this side of the Atlantic.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 03:31:04 PM »
How does one say "all things will be restored in Christ" in Latin?  Instaurare omnia in Christo, I think, means "to restore all things in Christ."  I need to know how to say "all things will be restored."

Thank you.
"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 03:53:21 PM »
How does one say "all things will be restored in Christ" in Latin?  Instaurare omnia in Christo, I think, means "to restore all things in Christ."  I need to know how to say "all things will be restored."

Thank you.

Instaurabunt omnia in Christo.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 03:56:49 PM »
How does one say "all things will be restored in Christ" in Latin?  Instaurare omnia in Christo, I think, means "to restore all things in Christ."  I need to know how to say "all things will be restored."

Thank you.

Instaurabunt omnia in Christo.

Not your fault at all, but that is such a disappointing answer.  Instaurabunt?  It's so flat-sounding.  It does me no good.  I think I'm going to have the character say "instaurare," even though it's grammatically not quite correct.  But thank you for the help.
"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 04:01:27 PM »
Do you like "instaurent" better?  That is the present subjunctive and you could translate it, "May all things be restored."
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 04:04:47 PM »
Do you like "instaurent" better?  That is the present subjunctive and you could translate it, "May all things be restored."

That does improve it slightly, but a vowel ending has a more pleasing, Mediterranean ring to it.  -Ent and -bunt are harsh and flat to the ear.  Blunt.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 04:17:26 PM by Pon de Replay »
"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 04:12:45 PM »
I just realized that I should have changed the verb to passive voice, so it should be "instaurabuntur".  If you want it to end in a vowel, perhaps you could do something with the imperative.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 04:18:25 PM by Jayne »
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2014, 04:18:51 PM »
I just realized that I should have changed the verb to passive voice, so the it should be "instaurabuntur".  If you want it to end in a vowel, perhaps you could do something with the imperative.

By imperative, would that be something like "all things must be restored in Christ?"  Because that would work.  Certainly if it ends in a vowel.
"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2014, 04:26:54 PM »
The imperative would be "Instaurate omnia in Christo" - "Restore all things in Christ".

Or you could say "Instaurari in Christo omnia debent" to get "All things must be restored in Christ".  That's the passive infinitive form. I dare say you will like it.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2014, 04:37:23 PM »
The imperative would be "Instaurate omnia in Christo" - "Restore all things in Christ".

Or you could say "Instaurari in Christo omnia debent" to get "All things must be restored in Christ".  That's the passive infinitive form. I dare say you will like it.

The "debent" ruins it.  I'm going to go with "instaurate."  Thank you for seeing this through.

Could "omnia" come first in the sentence if I'm using the imperative?  "Omnia instaurate in Christo"?
"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2014, 05:20:13 PM »
Could "omnia" come first in the sentence if I'm using the imperative?  "Omnia instaurate in Christo"?

Yes.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Latin question
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2014, 06:59:43 PM »
I just realized that I should have changed the verb to passive voice, so the it should be "instaurabuntur".  If you want it to end in a vowel, perhaps you could do something with the imperative.

By imperative, would that be something like "all things must be restored in Christ?"  Because that would work.  Certainly if it ends in a vowel.

I think you're probably trying to find a construction similar to "Carthago delenda est!"

Wikipedia says about it: "The phrase employs delendum, the gerundive of the verb deleo, "to destroy".[2] The gerundive (or future passive participle) delendus is a verbal adjective that may be translated as "to be destroyed". When combined with a form of the verb sum ("to be"), it adds an element of compulsion or necessity, yielding "is to be destroyed", or, as it is more commonly rendered "must be destroyed". The gerundive delendus functions as a predicative adjective in this construction,[3] which is known as a passive periphrastic. Carthago being a feminine noun, the feminine gender delenda of the gerundive is applied. The fuller forms Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam or Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam use the so-called accusative and infinitive for the indirect statement."

So perhaps: "Omnia Instaurando Est!"