Author Topic: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?  (Read 2259 times)

Offline bben15

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Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« on: February 16, 2014, 08:11:06 PM »
Hello. When I was on CAF, a deacon posted on a thread saying that the Church has never said that the Words of Consecration need to be said in order for the Sacrament to be valid. But, it was my understanding that the form of the Sacrament of Holy Orders is the Words of Consecration, and for any sacrament to be valid, there must be form, intent, and matter.

Is the deacon wrong, or is he correct? I would guess he is right, since he is more educated than I am, and he possess Holy Orders, but I just wanted to confirm, as humans make mistakes, and as I have also heard that the Words of Consecration NEED to be said, so there is a contradiction.

God bless, and thank you.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 08:12:48 PM by bben15 »
 

Offline dymphna17

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 08:32:57 PM »
He is wrong and you are correct.  Words are part of the form.  This is why there is so much controversy regarding the changing the words of the consecration of the Blessed Sacrament.  Words matter.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 08:55:42 PM »
Perhaps the deacon was saying that all of the words of the Consecration are not necessary, only the phrases "this is my Body" and "this is my Blood".  That is arguably the correct position.
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Offline bben15

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 09:11:14 PM »
Perhaps the deacon was saying that all of the words of the Consecration are not necessary, only the phrases "this is my Body" and "this is my Blood".  That is arguably the correct position.

Good try, but we are referring to Holy Orders, not the Eucharist.  :thumbsup:

The Words of Consecration for the ordination of priests according to the 1962 Pontifical are:

Quote
Almighty Father, we pray that you bestow on these servants of yours the dignity of the priesthood. Renew in their hearts the spirit of holiness, so that they may be steadfast in this second degree of the priestly office received from you, O God, and by their own lives suggest a rule of life to others.

 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 09:19:41 PM »
Sorry, I did not read the question carefully enough.
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Offline bben15

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 09:31:49 PM »
Sorry, I did not read the question carefully enough.

You're fine.  :thumbsup:
 

Offline joe17

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 10:29:11 PM »
Correct, the proper sacramental form must be said over the man(deacon) who is to be ordained a priest, as well as for deacon and bishop.  http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRAO.HTM
 Per Sacrementum Ordinis above matter and form(the words) are necessary for validity, as well as intention, etc.  The preface of each order needs to be spoken, not only mentally formed, for the sacrament to be valid.
  I wonder if the moderators over there at Catholic Answers corrected the deacon. 
Do read the above, short encyclical.  Keep asking the questions.  There is so much to take in on the Holy Catholic faith.

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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 10:58:21 PM »
In order for there to be a valid sacrament, you need Matter, Form and intent.  The omission of any of the three invalidates the sacrament. 
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Offline Petrie

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Re: Form and Matter of Holy Orders?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 05:35:36 AM »
Correct, the proper sacramental form must be said over the man(deacon) who is to be ordained a priest, as well as for deacon and bishop.  http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRAO.HTM
 Per Sacrementum Ordinis above matter and form(the words) are necessary for validity, as well as intention, etc.  The preface of each order needs to be spoken, not only mentally formed, for the sacrament to be valid.
  I wonder if the moderators over there at Catholic Answers corrected the deacon. 
Do read the above, short encyclical.  Keep asking the questions.  There is so much to take in on the Holy Catholic faith.

 Joe

You beat me to it:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRAO.HTM

Notice how specific Pope Pius XII is about the words of the form of the sacrament.

This encyclical is very important especially given the requirements for the form for valid episcopal consecrations.  The pre-Vatican II form is very different than what is used today.  Fr Cekada does a great job of discussing the differences and whether the post-Vatican II EC's are valid here:

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf


As for CAF correcting the deacon?  lol  That would probably be like them correcting the Brother-poster although the first would probably be more likely than the latter.
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