Author Topic: Reforming the Irreformable? A priest begins to see the light vis-a-vie the NO  (Read 9342 times)

Offline Kaesekopf

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I'm surprised the NLM ran this article. There was a time not long ago when reform-of-the-reform stuff had about equal coverage with the traditional Mass. They seem to be on the verge of throwing in the towel on that idea now.
Agreed. That being said, it is notable that Fr. Kocik has hardly posted there in years. During Benedict XVI's papacy, he wrote something about how he could only really continue to write about RotR if juridical changes happened. He seemed frustrated at the time, if I recall correctly.

Isn't that how we all began/begin, though?  We move from the common Novus Ordo, rife with abuses and irreverence, to beginning to think we can reform the NO, save the Mass and make everything better?  But then we realize, no one actually wants the NO in Latin and "said properly" (blech).  We realize the hierarchy is A-OK with the way things are, and that, even if we did implement those types of reforms, all we're doing is making the NO look and sound more and more like the TLM.  If we're going to do that, why bother half-assing things with a liturgy constructed in the 1960s?  Why don't we add the prayers at the foot of the altar, the Leonine prayers, custody of the fingers.  Wait, why don't we just go whole hog and go to the TLM?

It can be a long or short process, I think.  It's just a matter of how God wants to bring them around, IMHO.
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Offline Parresia

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I'm surprised the NLM ran this article. There was a time not long ago when reform-of-the-reform stuff had about equal coverage with the traditional Mass. They seem to be on the verge of throwing in the towel on that idea now.
Agreed. That being said, it is notable that Fr. Kocik has hardly posted there in years. During Benedict XVI's papacy, he wrote something about how he could only really continue to write about RotR if juridical changes happened. He seemed frustrated at the time, if I recall correctly.

Isn't that how we all began/begin, though?  We move from the common Novus Ordo, rife with abuses and irreverence, to beginning to think we can reform the NO, save the Mass and make everything better?  But then we realize, no one actually wants the NO in Latin and "said properly" (blech).  We realize the hierarchy is A-OK with the way things are, and that, even if we did implement those types of reforms, all we're doing is making the NO look and sound more and more like the TLM.  If we're going to do that, why bother half-assing things with a liturgy constructed in the 1960s?  Why don't we add the prayers at the foot of the altar, the Leonine prayers, custody of the fingers.  Wait, why don't we just go whole hog and go to the TLM?

It can be a long or short process, I think.  It's just a matter of how God wants to bring them around, IMHO.

Yep. That describes my process pretty much to a T. 
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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The NLM does more RotR these days, not less? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, if that's the case. I thought the blog might as well have gone to archive mode after the accession of Francis.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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The NLM does more RotR these days, not less? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, if that's the case. I thought the blog might as well have gone to archive mode after the accession of Francis.

That was my impression.  Maybe it made the change after Francis, and my memory is faulty.  I have trouble remembering it's 2014, and not 2012, after all...  :(
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Offline Parresia

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Here is another priest, this time a Benedictine Monk, who seems to be making the same journey as Fr. Kocik is taking, and many of us have already taken to some extent or other.  He has not gone as far as Fr. Kocik at this point as he still talks about saving the NO towards the end, but he appears to be on the way.  He also discusses how Fr. Kocik's post on NLM the other day rocked him completely, lending credence to Rorate Caeli's claim that this was a seminal moment of some kind. 

Quote
Here probably comes the nub of the issue: the new Mass has the inherent quality that it allows the celebrant to take over. He is “president” (awful word in liturgy), and too easily he becomes star of the show. I see regularly the pressure that some priests unconsciously feel to be creative, to say something relevant or meaningful, to be constantly babbling. Being in the vernacular allows the priest to dominate the Mass, in a way that is near impossible in Latin. He can interject and extemporize at will. There is the modern plague of the opening mini-sermon telling you what the readings are going to be about (cannot the people understand vernacular readings for themselves?!). Then there are the myriad changes and “improvements” that some priests feel that they must impose (must the people be patronized so?). The most dangerous thing of all, perhaps, for the priest is facing the people. Now, everyone’s eyes are on him and not on God and his Christ, who will return from the East. Instead of priest and people together facing God they face each other, a closed and often self-satisfied circle. Many a priest will recite the Eucharistic Prayer with his eyes on the people, and so inevitably end up talking to the people, even showing them the host as he pronounces “Take this all of you…”, talking all the time to the Father, not to the people.

In other words, there is a disjunction between what is meant to happen at Mass and what seems so often to be happening. There is an incongruence between the words and the actions. It is possible to do the new Mass properly; but the new Mass seems to have the inherent flaw that it is so easy to do improperly.

The whole blog post can be read in its entirety here: http://hughosb.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/the-lament-of-a-liturgical-loner/

 

Offline Kaesekopf

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To co-opt a phrase....

brick by brick!

:lol:
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline Parresia

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To co-opt a phrase....

brick by brick!

:lol:

Indeed. 

Another brick in the wall? 

http://vultus.stblogs.org/index.php/2014/02/let-nothing-be-preferred-to-the-work-of-god/

Quote
Father Thomas Kocik‘s article of 9 February 2014 (see The New Liturgical Movement) discussing his long–standing and courageous commitment to the “reform of the reform” and his disillusionment with the possibility of it being realised dovetails with Father Hugh’s observations. I was, at one time, as deeply committed to the reform of the reform as was Father Kocik, having contributed to the Beyond the Prosaic conference at Oxford in 1996 and to the book that followed it. Like Father Kocik, although several years earlier, I came to see the futility of trying to repair something that, at bottom, is structurally unsound. Nowhere is the old adage, “Haste makes waste”, truer than when applied to the precipitous reform of liturgical rites and the books that contain them. In most places the liturgical landscape has become a dreary wasteland. The liturgical rites and books prepared so feverishly in the wake of the Second Vatican Council have been tried and found wanting.

There are, it is true, liturgical oases here and there, where the reformed rites are carried out intelligently, with dignity, reverence, and devotion — I am thinking of certain communities, monasteries, and parishes, the Communauté de Saint–Martin, for example — but these subjective qualities cannot make up for the objective flaws and structural weaknesses inherent in the same rites.

Although I am content with the sacred liturgy as we celebrate it here at Silverstream Priory, using the 1962 Missal and the traditional Benedictine choir books for the Divine Office — however modestly and humbly, and with limited means — I affirm and share the conclusions and aspirations of both Father Hugh and Father Kocik. The passing of the years has demonstrated the intrinsic inadequacies of the reformed liturgical books of the last post–conciliar era.  The cracks in the post–conciliar liturgical edifice became evident almost as soon as the new rites began to be “lived in.” Today, the same edifice appears like so many shabby buildings put up hastily during an economic boom, now revealing their structural flaws, and threatening imminent collapse.


 

Offline rbjmartin

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The NLM does more RotR these days, not less? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, if that's the case. I thought the blog might as well have gone to archive mode after the accession of Francis.

That was my impression.  Maybe it made the change after Francis, and my memory is faulty.  I have trouble remembering it's 2014, and not 2012, after all...  :(

I think it has become more trad since Jeffrey Tucker took over. From what I can tell, he is a pretty unapologetic trad. I know that Tom Woods and a friend of mine who knew him through the Von Mises Institute were all in the Austro-libertarian-trad-Catholic boat together.
 

Offline VeraeFidei

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I'm surprised the NLM ran this article. There was a time not long ago when reform-of-the-reform stuff had about equal coverage with the traditional Mass. They seem to be on the verge of throwing in the towel on that idea now.
Agreed. That being said, it is notable that Fr. Kocik has hardly posted there in years. During Benedict XVI's papacy, he wrote something about how he could only really continue to write about RotR if juridical changes happened. He seemed frustrated at the time, if I recall correctly.

Isn't that how we all began/begin, though?  We move from the common Novus Ordo, rife with abuses and irreverence, to beginning to think we can reform the NO, save the Mass and make everything better?  But then we realize, no one actually wants the NO in Latin and "said properly" (blech).  We realize the hierarchy is A-OK with the way things are, and that, even if we did implement those types of reforms, all we're doing is making the NO look and sound more and more like the TLM.  If we're going to do that, why bother half-assing things with a liturgy constructed in the 1960s?  Why don't we add the prayers at the foot of the altar, the Leonine prayers, custody of the fingers.  Wait, why don't we just go whole hog and go to the TLM?

It can be a long or short process, I think.  It's just a matter of how God wants to bring them around, IMHO.

Yep. That describes my process pretty much to a T.
You make a fair point. That was basically my position for some time.
 

Offline Parresia

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http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-end-of-reform-of-reform-i-too-came.html

More on this from Rorate Caeli.

Quote
While the present is discouraging in many ways, what the decades and centuries to come will bring is quite another matter. Let each one of us make our own effort according to our own state in life. Lest we be misunderstood, we are not gleeful great minds are reaching the same conclusion: it is instead terrifying to contemplate the work that is to be done by generations to come. May God help us  — and them.
 

Offline Pheo

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Thanks for these links, Parresia.  I hope we're coming up to some sort of watershed moment.  I've never seen such widespread dissent from the reform of the reform party line.

I won't hold my breath for Fr Z on this one, but that would be something else...!
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Offline Parresia

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Thanks for these links, Parresia.  I hope we're coming up to some sort of watershed moment.  I've never seen such widespread dissent from the reform of the reform party line.

I won't hold my breath for Fr Z on this one, but that would be something else...!

Yes it would. 

I am starting to notice something. The Spirit of Vatican II crowd are crowing because they think Francis is taking them back there, and they were on life support towards the end of Benedict's pontificate.  I think it is a last gasp, because most of them are aging and will no longer by in positions of influence in the Church in the not too distant future. 

However, I am also noticing those who might be more recently described as traditional leaning, rather than traditionalist, who are digging in their heels in a refusal to go back to the 1970-80's, and becoming more outspoken on the issues that the Church faces, to include their dissatisfaction with Francis. 
 

Offline VeraeFidei

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The NLM does more RotR these days, not less? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, if that's the case. I thought the blog might as well have gone to archive mode after the accession of Francis.

That was my impression.  Maybe it made the change after Francis, and my memory is faulty.  I have trouble remembering it's 2014, and not 2012, after all...  :(

I think it has become more trad since Jeffrey Tucker took over. From what I can tell, he is a pretty unapologetic trad. I know that Tom Woods and a friend of mine who knew him through the Von Mises Institute were all in the Austro-libertarian-trad-Catholic boat together.
Jeffery Tucker the liberterian pro-homo adoption trad? I think trad describes his liturgical preference and little else.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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The NLM does more RotR these days, not less? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, if that's the case. I thought the blog might as well have gone to archive mode after the accession of Francis.

That was my impression.  Maybe it made the change after Francis, and my memory is faulty.  I have trouble remembering it's 2014, and not 2012, after all...  :(

I think it has become more trad since Jeffrey Tucker took over. From what I can tell, he is a pretty unapologetic trad. I know that Tom Woods and a friend of mine who knew him through the Von Mises Institute were all in the Austro-libertarian-trad-Catholic boat together.

This could very well be.  I have started reading more of it ever since Shawn left.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline rbjmartin

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The NLM does more RotR these days, not less? Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, if that's the case. I thought the blog might as well have gone to archive mode after the accession of Francis.

That was my impression.  Maybe it made the change after Francis, and my memory is faulty.  I have trouble remembering it's 2014, and not 2012, after all...  :(

I think it has become more trad since Jeffrey Tucker took over. From what I can tell, he is a pretty unapologetic trad. I know that Tom Woods and a friend of mine who knew him through the Von Mises Institute were all in the Austro-libertarian-trad-Catholic boat together.
Jeffery Tucker the liberterian pro-homo adoption trad? I think trad describes his liturgical preference and little else.

I will say that he, at times, seemingly lets his political/economic ideology take precedence over natural/divine law.