Author Topic: TLM Never Abrogated?  (Read 14233 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2015, 11:19:27 AM »
A solid case can be made that Pope St. Pius V's decree is irreformable. But it is enough to show that many Cardinals close to Pope Paul VI after a study concluded that the true Mass was never banned, as if that was possible. It was a massive deception, wrought by a chosen few in high posts in the Church, including Bugnini, whose desire to pretend the Mass was abrogated was turned down.

"The commission judged the conditions for the 1984 indult too restrictive and proposed their relaxation. These conclusions served as functional guidelines for the Commission Ecclesia Dei, but they were never promulgated. In this context, it should be noted that the Holy See does recognize the right of the priest to celebrate the traditional Mass; this is borne out by the fact that whenever priests are unjustly suspended for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of their bishops, the Roman Curia always nullifies the penalty whenever the cases are appealed. It is the present jurisprudence of the Church that, upon appeal, any suspension that an Ordinary attempts to inflict on a priest for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of the bishop is automatically nullified."

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7729

And this is from the Remnant a few years ago, "And it was none other than Bugnini who revealed in his posthumously published autobiography that when he attempted to obtain a definitive declaration from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts that Paul VI had abrogated and forbidden the traditional Latin Mass merely by announcing the publication of his own Missal in the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum (3 April 1969), he was rebuffed with a reply from the Secretariat of State that such a declaration would be seen as “casting odium on the liturgical Tradition.”9 Even the further “Notification” of October 28, 1974, another Bugnini document, did not declare abrogation of the traditional Mass, and thus, as Bugnini put it, “did not suffice to do away with the difficulties.”10  Less than a year later, Bugnini was sacked and his congregation dissolved, almost immediately after Paul VI was given a dossier purportedly documenting Bugnini’s Masonic affiliations, as Bugnini himself disclosed."

So, the beginning of the end of the revolution is the admission that Pope St. Pius V's decree remains valid and that all priests without the slightest "scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully" may offer the true Mass, that no one can be made to offer Mass "otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force" so that no one is obliged to offer any Mass other than that of St. Pius V, not only priests, but even bishops and Cardinals. Conservative and semi-traditional priests should take note and have the courage, as SSPX and other traditional priests have done, to make the principled decision to offer the true Mass exclusively without any scruple, knowing any attempted censure will be unjust and invalid.


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Offline aquinas138

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2015, 02:27:18 PM »
A solid case can be made that Pope St. Pius V's decree is irreformable.

This is not really true. The solemn language at the end of Quo primum is boilerplate basically saying that the decree doesn't have an expiration date; a pope cannot bind a successor with respect to ecclesiastical law, since each pope holds supreme power in this regard. Furthermore, the solemn language at the end of Quo primum is basically the same as the saintly pontiff's decree Quod a nobis, promulgating the Roman Breviary, yet the Breviary was tinkered with for centuries (just like the Missal), and finally radically reshaped by St. Pius X in Divino Afflatu - a decree with the same boilerplate attached.
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Offline OSB Melitensis

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2015, 03:19:16 PM »
A solid case can be made that Pope St. Pius V's decree is irreformable. But it is enough to show that many Cardinals close to Pope Paul VI after a study concluded that the true Mass was never banned, as if that was possible. It was a massive deception, wrought by a chosen few in high posts in the Church, including Bugnini, whose desire to pretend the Mass was abrogated was turned down.

"The commission judged the conditions for the 1984 indult too restrictive and proposed their relaxation. These conclusions served as functional guidelines for the Commission Ecclesia Dei, but they were never promulgated. In this context, it should be noted that the Holy See does recognize the right of the priest to celebrate the traditional Mass; this is borne out by the fact that whenever priests are unjustly suspended for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of their bishops, the Roman Curia always nullifies the penalty whenever the cases are appealed. It is the present jurisprudence of the Church that, upon appeal, any suspension that an Ordinary attempts to inflict on a priest for celebrating the Old Mass against the will of the bishop is automatically nullified."

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7729

And this is from the Remnant a few years ago, "And it was none other than Bugnini who revealed in his posthumously published autobiography that when he attempted to obtain a definitive declaration from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts that Paul VI had abrogated and forbidden the traditional Latin Mass merely by announcing the publication of his own Missal in the Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum (3 April 1969), he was rebuffed with a reply from the Secretariat of State that such a declaration would be seen as “casting odium on the liturgical Tradition.”9 Even the further “Notification” of October 28, 1974, another Bugnini document, did not declare abrogation of the traditional Mass, and thus, as Bugnini put it, “did not suffice to do away with the difficulties.”10  Less than a year later, Bugnini was sacked and his congregation dissolved, almost immediately after Paul VI was given a dossier purportedly documenting Bugnini’s Masonic affiliations, as Bugnini himself disclosed."

So, the beginning of the end of the revolution is the admission that Pope St. Pius V's decree remains valid and that all priests without the slightest "scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully" may offer the true Mass, that no one can be made to offer Mass "otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force" so that no one is obliged to offer any Mass other than that of St. Pius V, not only priests, but even bishops and Cardinals. Conservative and semi-traditional priests should take note and have the courage, as SSPX and other traditional priests have done, to make the principled decision to offer the true Mass exclusively without any scruple, knowing any attempted censure will be unjust and invalid.

Dr. Eric de Saventhem, FIUV's first President, was instrumental in convincing Pope John Paul II in 1986 to convoke a special Commission of Cardinals (mentioned in the quote, namely: Ratzinger, Mayer, Oddi, Stickler, Casaroli, Gantin, Innocenti, Palazzini and Tomko). An interesting interview that he held with Archbishop Lefebvre follows:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-historical-interview-from-first-fiuv.html

And, Bugnini, famous for how he played with words ... and worse:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2011/09/archbishop-annibale-bugnini-on-novus.html
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 03:29:53 PM by OSB Melitensis »
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Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2015, 04:05:26 PM »
Dr. Eric de Saventhem, FIUV's first President, was instrumental in convincing Pope John Paul II in 1986 to convoke a special Commission of Cardinals (mentioned in the quote, namely: Ratzinger, Mayer, Oddi, Stickler, Casaroli, Gantin, Innocenti, Palazzini and Tomko). An interesting interview that he held with Archbishop Lefebvre follows:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-historical-interview-from-first-fiuv.html

Thanks for this.  It was fascinating. I really liked this comment of ABL: "I accept everything that, in the Council and its reforms, is in full agreement with Tradition."  This is such a good way to express the position that I want to use it myself when I have the opportunity.
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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2015, 04:15:37 PM »
Dr. Eric de Saventhem, FIUV's first President, was instrumental in convincing Pope John Paul II in 1986 to convoke a special Commission of Cardinals (mentioned in the quote, namely: Ratzinger, Mayer, Oddi, Stickler, Casaroli, Gantin, Innocenti, Palazzini and Tomko). An interesting interview that he held with Archbishop Lefebvre follows:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-historical-interview-from-first-fiuv.html

Thanks for this.  It was fascinating. I really liked this comment of ABL: "I accept everything that, in the Council and its reforms, is in full agreement with Tradition."  This is such a good way to express the position that I want to use it myself when I have the opportunity.

Isn't that what +Fellay says nowadays and gets roasted over?
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Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2015, 04:19:02 PM »
Thanks for this.  It was fascinating. I really liked this comment of ABL: "I accept everything that, in the Council and its reforms, is in full agreement with Tradition."  This is such a good way to express the position that I want to use it myself when I have the opportunity.

Isn't that what +Fellay says nowadays and gets roasted over?

I have the impression that some people have made up their minds to be displeased with Bishop Fellay, no matter what.
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2015, 04:24:45 PM »
Pope Benedict should have considered a career in stand up comedy now that he is Pope Emeritus. His talents are wasted.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2015, 05:00:57 PM »
Pope Benedict should have considered a career in stand up comedy now that he is Pope Emeritus. His talents are wasted.

I don't think he was being funny or disregarding the suffering of people caused by the de facto abrogation of the TLM.  He was refuting people like Bugnini who claimed that it was abrogated in order to justify suppressing it.  This was Pope Benedict's acknowledgement that Bugnini et al. were wrong.
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Offline Baldrick

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2015, 07:49:52 PM »
Depends on what is meant by the TLM, doesn't it? 

I mean if you say the "Latin Mass, Extraordinary Form" etc. then perhaps that's true. 

But if we're talking about the Mass (or any Mass) that pre-dates the 1962 Missal, if it was never abrogated then why is does one have to go to a Sede Parish to find it? 
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2015, 09:13:05 PM »
Here is an article http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2013/07/04/holy-tridentine-mass-was-never-juridically-abrogated/ that positively views the statement that the TLM was never abrogated. It is a good thing that Pope Benedict said it.
Quote
Why?  Because it will give us traditional catholics rights that God has given to us to have the Tridentine Mass which authorities of the church have un-lawfully taken away.  We will no longer be the begging dog for crumbs but children of God treated with respect when it comes to our God given right to have the Holy Tridentine Mass once again.


The article also cites one by Christopher Ferrara that has a similar perspective: http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-0630-ferrara-neo-catholic-fanaticism.htm This is the sort of reaction to this topic that I expect from trads and I found all the negative comments in this thread a bit odd.

Anyhow, Fr. Carota gives lots of historical detail useful for understanding the issue.  I especially liked this quote from pre-papacy Cardinal Ratzinger:
Quote
For fostering a true consciousness in liturgical matters, it is also important that the proscription against the form of liturgy in valid use up to 1970 should be lifted. Anyone who nowadays advocates the continuing existence of this liturgy or takes part in it is treated like a leper; all tolerance ends here. There has never been anything like this in history; in doing this we are despising and proscribing the Church’s whole past. How can one trust her present if things are that way? I must say, quite openly, that I don’t understand why so many of my episcopal brethren have to a great extent submitted to this rule of intolerance, which for no apparent reason is opposed to making the necessary inner reconciliations within the Church. (Joseph Ratzinger, God and the World: A Conversation with Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, 2002, p. 416).”
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Offline OSB Melitensis

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2015, 02:58:44 AM »
Dr. Eric de Saventhem, FIUV's first President, was instrumental in convincing Pope John Paul II in 1986 to convoke a special Commission of Cardinals (mentioned in the quote, namely: Ratzinger, Mayer, Oddi, Stickler, Casaroli, Gantin, Innocenti, Palazzini and Tomko). An interesting interview that he held with Archbishop Lefebvre follows:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-historical-interview-from-first-fiuv.html

Thanks for this.  It was fascinating. I really liked this comment of ABL: "I accept everything that, in the Council and its reforms, is in full agreement with Tradition."  This is such a good way to express the position that I want to use it myself when I have the opportunity.

You're welcome  :)
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Offline OSB Melitensis

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2015, 03:05:21 AM »
Pope Benedict should have considered a career in stand up comedy now that he is Pope Emeritus. His talents are wasted.

In fairness to Benedict XVI, this is what Bishop Williamson had to say:

http://godwinxuereb.blogspot.com/2014/10/cardinal-ratzinger-on-his-conscience.html
"In ancient times, our forefathers sowed the seeds of the wheat of faith in that field which is the Church. It would be quite unjust and improper if we, their descendents, gathered, instead of the genuine truth of wheat, the false tares of error. On the contrary, it is logically correct that the beginning and the end be in agreement, that we reap from the planting of the wheat of doctrine the harvest of the wheat of dogma. In this way, none of the Characteristics of the seed is changed, although something evolved in the course of time from those first seeds and has now expanded under careful cultivation. What may be added is merely appearance, beauty, and distinction, but the proper nature of each kind remains."  St. Vincent of Lerins
 

Offline VeraeFidei

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2015, 09:21:45 PM »
A solid case can be made that Pope St. Pius V's decree is irreformable.

This is not really true. The solemn language at the end of Quo primum is boilerplate basically saying that the decree doesn't have an expiration date; a pope cannot bind a successor with respect to ecclesiastical law, since each pope holds supreme power in this regard. Furthermore, the solemn language at the end of Quo primum is basically the same as the saintly pontiff's decree Quod a nobis, promulgating the Roman Breviary, yet the Breviary was tinkered with for centuries (just like the Missal), and finally radically reshaped by St. Pius X in Divino Afflatu - a decree with the same boilerplate attached.
This. Anyone who defends the "Mass of All Times" as synonymous with the 1962 Rite and would reign down hell fire onto Paul VI for daring to violate Pius V's sacrosanct Bull better have the same hell fire ready for Pope Saint Pius X, who dared to violate Pius V's sacrosanct language of his promulgation of the Tridentine Breviary in 1568. Otherwise, to be nice: Can It.
 

Offline Mattock

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2015, 05:42:21 PM »
A solid case can be made that Pope St. Pius V's decree is irreformable.

This is not really true. The solemn language at the end of Quo primum is boilerplate basically saying that the decree doesn't have an expiration date; a pope cannot bind a successor with respect to ecclesiastical law, since each pope holds supreme power in this regard. Furthermore, the solemn language at the end of Quo primum is basically the same as the saintly pontiff's decree Quod a nobis, promulgating the Roman Breviary, yet the Breviary was tinkered with for centuries (just like the Missal), and finally radically reshaped by St. Pius X in Divino Afflatu - a decree with the same boilerplate attached.

But the Breviary isn't a sacrament. Quo Primum has never been abrogated and the boilerplate, as you put it, on it covers matters pertaining to the Faith. Matters of faith and morals are irreformable once solemnly defined by a pope. The Breviary is actually, strictly speaking, a discipline. Little rubrics of the Mass can change and have changed. But the Mass qua Mass? Not even by the Pope. The Faith is not the Pope's private sandbox. I should also point out that all the previous popes to change the Missal in the least way felt bound by Quo Primum. Look up some talks by the late Father Hesse; he covers this very clearly.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 12:44:58 AM by Mattock »
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Offline VeraeFidei

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2015, 12:20:43 AM »
A solid case can be made that Pope St. Pius V's decree is irreformable.

This is not really true. The solemn language at the end of Quo primum is boilerplate basically saying that the decree doesn't have an expiration date; a pope cannot bind a successor with respect to ecclesiastical law, since each pope holds supreme power in this regard. Furthermore, the solemn language at the end of Quo primum is basically the same as the saintly pontiff's decree Quod a nobis, promulgating the Roman Breviary, yet the Breviary was tinkered with for centuries (just like the Missal), and finally radically reshaped by St. Pius X in Divino Afflatu - a decree with the same boilerplate attached.

But the Breviary isn't a sacrament. Quo Primum has never been abrogated and the boilerplate, as you put it, on it covers matters pertaining to the Faith. Matters of faith and morals are irreformable once solemnly defined by a pope. The Breviary is actually, strictly speaking, a discipline. Little rubrics of the Mass can change and have changed. But the Mass qua Mass? Not even my the Pope. The Faith is not the Pope's private sandbox. I should also point out that all the previous popes to change the Missal in the least way felt bound by Quo Primum. Look up some talks by the late Father Hesse; he covers this very clearly.
Good heavens, if this is not a disastrously flawed understanding of the public prayer of the Church, I do not know what would be. Also, I don't think Pius XII felt all that bound by Quo Primum when he demolished the Traditional Rites of the holiest days of the year and thus some of the most ancient and venerable Rites of Rome. Where in the hell is your condemnation of him?