Author Topic: TLM Never Abrogated?  (Read 13973 times)

Offline Prayerful

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2015, 04:58:25 AM »

It seems as if the Tridentine Mass was de facto abolished, but not de jure.


I was both de facto and de jure. Benedict's statement was nothing more than a straightforward denial of reality. In fact, Pope Paul VI forbade the Latin Mass, both in theory and in practice.

Yes, Paul VI banned it. The indults meant nothing for most people. I think Pope Francis would prefer if it could be suppressed, or at least strictly confined to priestly societies, or any traditional orders that Commissioner Volpi hasn't got around to investigating.
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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2015, 08:34:36 AM »
This is from http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7729 "In 1986 Pope John Paul II appointed a commission of nine cardinals to examine the legal status of the Old Mass. The commission consisted of Agostino Cardinal Casaroli, Bernard Cardinal Gantin, Paul Augustin Cardinal Mayer, Antonio Cardinal Innocenti, Silvio Cardinal Oddi, Petro Cardinal Palazzini, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Alfons Cardinal Stickler and Jozef Cardinal Tomko and it was instructed to examine whether the New Rite of Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI abrogated the Old Rite, and whether a bishop can prohibit his priests from celebrating the Old Mass. The commission met in December 1986. Eight of nine cardinals answered that the New Mass had not abrogated the Old Mass. The nine cardinals unanimously determined that Pope Paul VI never gave the bishops the authority to forbid priest from celebrating Mass according to the Missal of St Pius V ...  Cardinal Medina Estévez, Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship writes in a letter of 21 May 2004: I reaffirm my personal opinion that the abrogation of the Missal of St Pius V is not proven and I can add that the decree that I signed promulgating the third typical edition of the Roman Missal does not contain any clause that abrogates the ancient form of the Roman Rite. (…) And I can also add that the absence of any abrogation clause whatsoever did not happen by chance, nor as it caused by inadvertence, but was intentional."

Pope St. Pius V has already told us any attempted censure will be unjust and invalid "in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force," and all priests have the right, and informed priests the duty, to say the true Mass exclusively, and Rome's late public admission of what the Commission of 1986 had already discerned semi-privately confirms what traditional Catholics had always maintained.
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Offline 1seeker

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 11:50:14 AM »
Also agreed.

It's a novel legalism to wash away the last 50 years that Rome and the Curia have treated like trash devout traditionalists and devout Catholics who simply wanted the Mass.

Much like the new prayer for blessing holy water, it means nothing.


Agreed. I don't know how Benedict XVI could pull off the "never abrogated" idea. It was manifestly abrogated, by Paul VI's words and actions; by JP II's words and actions (including his indults, which demonstrates that TLM needed his permission).

How could Benedict XVI state such a thing?

Was it just a rhetorical arm-twist, to force the Catholic world to embrace TLM?
 

Offline Older Salt

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 11:57:13 AM »

It seems as if the Tridentine Mass was de facto abolished, but not de jure.


I was both de facto and de jure. Benedict's statement was nothing more than a straightforward denial of reality. In fact, Pope Paul VI forbade the Latin Mass, both in theory and in practice.
Can you please give a source where Paul VI forbade the TLM?
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Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 11:58:30 AM »
I took the statement that the TLM was never abrogated as a vindication of the trads who had been saying that all along.  Pope Benedict was saying, in effect, "yes you were right all along and all those people who claimed or acted like it was abrogated were wrong."
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Offline VeraeFidei

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2015, 11:50:23 AM »
It's pretty hard to see how in Vatican-speak a new edition of a Missal of the same Rite (according to those who promulgated it) does not ipso facto abrogate the old. The diehards who claim it was never abrogated live in a reality that does not extend beyond their own minds.
 

Offline Older Salt

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2015, 09:05:02 AM »
I took the statement that the TLM was never abrogated as a vindication of the trads who had been saying that all along.  Pope Benedict was saying, in effect, "yes you were right all along and all those people who claimed or acted like it was abrogated were wrong."
What would you say about all those good priests who just wanted to offer the TLM exclusively, but their bishops "suspended" them?

If a priest does not need express permission to offer the NO, then he needs no express permission to offer the TLM since, according to Rome, they are the same Mass of the same Rite.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2015, 10:20:30 AM »
I took the statement that the TLM was never abrogated as a vindication of the trads who had been saying that all along.  Pope Benedict was saying, in effect, "yes you were right all along and all those people who claimed or acted like it was abrogated were wrong."
What would you say about all those good priests who just wanted to offer the TLM exclusively, but their bishops "suspended" them?

If a priest does not need express permission to offer the NO, then he needs no express permission to offer the TLM since, according to Rome, they are the same Mass of the same Rite.

A priest does not need express permission to say the TLM.  It does not follow, however, that he has a right to disobey his bishop when told to say the NO. 

On the other hand, I can easily imagine that some priests could not in good conscience say the NO.  They should not have done so. 
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Offline Older Salt

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2015, 10:54:33 AM »
I took the statement that the TLM was never abrogated as a vindication of the trads who had been saying that all along.  Pope Benedict was saying, in effect, "yes you were right all along and all those people who claimed or acted like it was abrogated were wrong."
What would you say about all those good priests who just wanted to offer the TLM exclusively, but their bishops "suspended" them?

If a priest does not need express permission to offer the NO, then he needs no express permission to offer the TLM since, according to Rome, they are the same Mass of the same Rite.

A priest does not need express permission to say the TLM.  It does not follow, however, that he has a right to disobey his bishop when told to say the NO. 

On the other hand, I can easily imagine that some priests could not in good conscience say the NO.  They should not have done so.
Yes it does follow since those priests who do not offer the NO realize that it is a protestanized service that does much to ruin the Faith and Faith ALWAYS is over obedience.
It is the Bishop who is being dis-obedient to the Catholic Church and 2000 years of organic development in the liturgy rather than Catholic priests who exclusively want to offer the TLM for souls sake.
Case in point, Fr Michael Rodriguez, a good and holy priest, who only wants souls to be saved, will not offer the NO even though His Ordinary is ordering him to.

It does follow since every priest who does not offer the NO does not do so out of a well formed conscience.
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2015, 04:28:39 PM »
I wonder whether Pope Francis has the ambition of seducing the SSPX in to the NO Babylon. There would be a coverage of traditional chapels, together with a few priestly societies, which would give an opportunity to withdraw Indult Masses as there would be sufficient priestly society chapels offering it. Maybe.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2015, 05:15:54 PM »
A priest does not need express permission to say the TLM.  It does not follow, however, that he has a right to disobey his bishop when told to say the NO. 

On the other hand, I can easily imagine that some priests could not in good conscience say the NO.  They should not have done so.
Yes it does follow since those priests who do not offer the NO realize that it is a protestanized service that does much to ruin the Faith and Faith ALWAYS is over obedience.
It is the Bishop who is being dis-obedient to the Catholic Church and 2000 years of organic development in the liturgy rather than Catholic priests who exclusively want to offer the TLM for souls sake.
Case in point, Fr Michael Rodriguez, a good and holy priest, who only wants souls to be saved, will not offer the NO even though His Ordinary is ordering him to.

From the priest's perspective, he should not say the NO because he cannot do so in good conscience.  Nevertheless, from the bishop's perspective, this is a disobedient priest against whom sanctions should be taken.  The bishop's actions are guided by his own understanding of what is right and wrong, not by the priest's.  In such a situation, the priest suffers for doing good and will be blessed by God for it.

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Offline aquinas138

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2015, 05:46:06 PM »
I have to join the chorus of those who think the idea that the TLM was "never abrogated" is preposterous; by some clever sophistry (and a papal letter), it can now be claimed that it was "never abrogated," but it manifestly was, as the sad story of so many clergy and laity, who only wanted to be Catholic as that was always understood, tells quite clearly. When Pope Paul promulgated the new missal in Missale Romanum, he speaks about it as a revision of the Roman Missal, and says he wishes that "Our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by Our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation," which seems to take care of Quo primum. We can quibble about the language, but it was obviously understood to suppress the TLM by the very fact that indults were required to say the TLM. An "in principle" right to say the TLM is pretty worthless if you cannot do so "in reality."
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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2015, 06:02:55 PM »
I have to join the chorus of those who think the idea that the TLM was "never abrogated" is preposterous; by some clever sophistry (and a papal letter), it can now be claimed that it was "never abrogated," but it manifestly was, as the sad story of so many clergy and laity, who only wanted to be Catholic as that was always understood, tells quite clearly. When Pope Paul promulgated the new missal in Missale Romanum, he speaks about it as a revision of the Roman Missal, and says he wishes that "Our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by Our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation," which seems to take care of Quo primum. We can quibble about the language, but it was obviously understood to suppress the TLM by the very fact that indults were required to say the TLM. An "in principle" right to say the TLM is pretty worthless if you cannot do so "in reality."

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Offline Prayerful

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2015, 06:28:28 PM »
Perhaps Pope Benedict meant it was not validly or rightly abrogated, as it was patently abrogated on a de-facto basis, but that doesn't really hold, and would not be sensible for a NO Pope to even imply. Pope Paul VI wanted the NO Mass to wholly supersede the Mass, barring rare exceptions, and did what was required in his office as Pope.
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Offline Older Salt

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Re: TLM Never Abrogated?
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2015, 10:52:44 AM »
A priest does not need express permission to say the TLM.  It does not follow, however, that he has a right to disobey his bishop when told to say the NO. 

On the other hand, I can easily imagine that some priests could not in good conscience say the NO.  They should not have done so.
Yes it does follow since those priests who do not offer the NO realize that it is a protestanized service that does much to ruin the Faith and Faith ALWAYS is over obedience.
It is the Bishop who is being dis-obedient to the Catholic Church and 2000 years of organic development in the liturgy rather than Catholic priests who exclusively want to offer the TLM for souls sake.
Case in point, Fr Michael Rodriguez, a good and holy priest, who only wants souls to be saved, will not offer the NO even though His Ordinary is ordering him to.

From the priest's perspective, he should not say the NO because he cannot do so in good conscience.  Nevertheless, from the bishop's perspective, this is a disobedient priest against whom sanctions should be taken.  The bishop's actions are guided by his own understanding of what is right and wrong, not by the priest's.  In such a situation, the priest suffers for doing good and will be blessed by God for it.
Yes I agree.
Even if an bishop suspends a priest, who out of good conscience exclusively offers the TLM, that priest will be blessed by God for doing so.
Yes.
I understand your point.
Thank you.
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