Author Topic: Question About The Brown Scapular  (Read 10329 times)

Offline Mr.Crowley

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2014, 08:12:04 PM »
I'm not hearing any reasons why I'm wrong here.

Then you're not reading. Penelope explained why. He is not yet Catholic. Catholic children receive training before their First Communion and first Confession. He was not raised in the Catholic faith.

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No, I am reading.

Penelope didn't explain anything.

He is a Catholic. He has the Catholic faith.

I was not raised in the Catholic faith either. It's not something ye just get born into, we're not Jews or anything like that. Special training? I don't think so.lol
 

Offline Mr.Crowley

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2014, 08:13:31 PM »
What possible reason is there to prevent a baptised person of the Catholic faith from going to confession?

When a person has been a heretic and wants to be a Catholic, he needs to publicly profess the Catholic faith and renounce his heresy (although this renunciation is not explicitly done in the modern RCIA.)

I think going to mass, reciting the creed is obviously an act of renouncing heresy and professing the faith, in and of itself.
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2014, 08:16:15 PM »
What possible reason is there to prevent a baptised person of the Catholic faith from going to confession?

When a person has been a heretic and wants to be a Catholic, he needs to publicly profess the Catholic faith and renounce his heresy (although this renunciation is not explicitly done in the modern RCIA.)

I think going to mass, reciting the creed is obviously an act of renouncing heresy and professing the faith, in and of itself.

It is not a public act if you are just anonymously in the pews like everyone else.  You need to get in front of people and say "I'm Catholic now." 
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Offline Mr.Crowley

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2014, 08:18:03 PM »
Before mass, go "I'm Catholic now". Wow that was hard.
 

Offline Penelope

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2014, 08:21:06 PM »
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.
 

Offline Mr.Crowley

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2014, 08:31:33 PM »
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.

You should stop with the 'won't' and 'unwillingness' part, because it sounds like you're just trying to implicate bad will on my part to give me a ban or something. And please, don't make out like I need a reversion. Frankly it's just rude. I am a Catholic. I don't need some special course to prove it, and you are certainly in no position to judge my catholicity.

You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2014, 08:42:51 PM »
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.

You should stop with the 'won't' and 'unwillingness' part, because it sounds like you're just trying to implicate bad will on my part to give me a ban or something. And please, don't make out like I need a reversion. Frankly it's just rude. I am a Catholic. I don't need some special course to prove it, and you are certainly in no position to judge my catholicity.

She said "unwillingness or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding.  She did not sound like she was trying to imply bad will on your part.  Everyone reading this thread is in a position to judge how well you understand this topic

You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.

Before modern RCIA classes, the norm was for converts to receive private instruction.  There has always been a need for converts to be educated in the Faith.
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Offline Penelope

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2014, 08:45:30 PM »
I did explain, quite clearly. Your inability or unwillingness to understand it is another matter, but the rationale has been explained. The Catholic Faith is not something you get born into, but rather something you get baptized into and then educated in. bben has been educated in a heretical religion and must be educated in the True Faith before receiving the sacraments. Why you can't or won't understand this fact is troubling, but I recommend that you talk to your priest. He can explain it to you and can make sure that your reversion is complete.

You should stop with the 'won't' and 'unwillingness' part, because it sounds like you're just trying to implicate bad will on my part to give me a ban or something. And please, don't make out like I need a reversion. Frankly it's just rude. I am a Catholic. I don't need some special course to prove it, and you are certainly in no position to judge my catholicity.

You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.

First of all, the rationale has been explained and you refused to accept it or even try to understand it. You keep calling it "daft." Thus, you come across not as questioning, but as obstinate and unwilling to understand. Second, your accusation that I am just looking for a reason to ban you (which I am not) makes you guilty of bad will, the exact thing of which you've accused me. Third, just saying "I'm a Catholic now" to yourself is not enough. Jayne and I (and others) have already explained why. If you don't believe us, talk to your SSPX priest. I didn't say you weren't a Catholic, I said that if you want to be sure that you've reverted to the Faith properly, you need to talk to your priest. And yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.

Your declaration that one does not need to be educated in the Faith in order to properly practice the Faith is unbelievably incorrect and contrary to the teaching of the Church. You need more than baptism and the creed. There's so much more to practicing the Faith than that, which is why the Church catechizes its members well past the memorization of a simple prayer. Your assertion is what's ridiculous and is dangerous to proclaim to bben and other converts. You have no idea what you're talking about, and you are in no position to be instructing people in how to practice the Faith.

Prior to the implementation of RCIA, other programs existed. Converts took private lessons from the parish priest. No one who just showed up at the door and said, "I've always been a pagan [or whatever else] but now I want to be a Catholic" was just granted access to the sacraments. It. Has. Never. Worked. That. Way.
 

Offline LouisIX

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2014, 08:51:14 PM »
In the old days, not only did only have to go through a period of time as a catechumen, one couldn't even stay at Mass for the consecration.

You're entirely outside of the teaching of the Church, Mr. Crowley, and your advice to the OP is spiritually ruinous. 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2014, 08:56:58 PM »
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies?  I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church.  Should I contact my priest about this?
 

Offline Penelope

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2014, 08:58:47 PM »
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies?  I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church.  Should I contact my priest about this?

He'll probably say it's enough that you've gone to Confession and not to worry. You'd have to talk to an actual trad priest about it (which ours is not). Trust me, I'm in the same boat that you are and I worry about it, too.

Edit: Though I did do a general Confession when I came back, so Idk.
 

Offline LouisIX

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2014, 08:59:39 PM »
Can somebody explain this thing about formally renouncing heresies?  I'm a revert (I guess) and I never renounced all the heresies that I committed in the years that I was away from the Church.  Should I contact my priest about this?

If you haven't confessed holding heresies then just confess it next time.
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Offline Mr.Crowley

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2014, 08:59:55 PM »
She said "unwillingness or inability" the two logical explanations for your lack of understanding.
So I'm either stupid or insincere? Lovely... could just be that I have a different opinion.

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You don't have to be educated in the faith at all. To suggest you do is ridiculous. Do you think they had RCIA classes in ye olde days, when there were saints everywhere ye looked? You get a homily at mass. There's plenty of education there. You wouldn't be going to a Catholic church if you didn't have some idea of what it was all about. All you need is the creed and a baptism.

Before modern RCIA classes, the norm was for converts to receive private instruction.  There has always been a need for converts to be educated in the Faith.
I n t e r n e t

First of all, the rationale has been explained and you refused to accept it or even try to understand it. You keep calling it "daft." Thus, you come across not as questioning, but as obstinate and unwilling to understand.
I understand what you have been saying, I am telling you what you are saying is daft.

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Second, your accusation that I am just looking for a reason to ban you (which I am not) makes you guilty of bad will, the exact thing of which you've accused me.
Guilty conscience? Because I definitely did not accuse you of anything, I told you it makes it look as if you are doing that. This even more makes it look like you are. What else am I to think. "Don't disagree with the bosses... or else", eh?

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Third, just saying "I'm a Catholic now" to yourself is not enough. Jayne and I (and others) have already explained why.
No, you haven't. You have said that it is not enough, but you have failed miserably in providing a why.

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If you don't believe us, talk to your SSPX priest.
It's really not important enough to bother my priest with.
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I didn't say you weren't a Catholic, I said that if you want to be sure that you've reverted to the Faith properly, you need to talk to your priest.
No, I don't. I know for a fact that I have... because it is a fact.

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And yes, all who apostatize must officially revert. That's how it works.
Officially? haha like with watermarked parchment and all that?  :lol:

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Your declaration that one does not need to be educated in the Faith in order to properly practice the Faith is unbelievably incorrect and contrary to the teaching of the Church.
[Citation needed] Do you mean Teaching or just the discipline of the church?

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You need more than baptism and the creed.
I'm gonna have to ask to see some evidence to back that up, please ma'am.

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There's so much more to practicing the Faith than that
Well there's lots of stuff to do with the faith, but that's what makes you Catholic. What else do you actually need?

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You have no idea what you're talking about, and you are in no position to be instructing people in how to practice the Faith.
So are you a cardinal now as well? Please tell me what position anyone here is in to instruct people? You have no idea what you're talking about yourelf, unless you're Fr. Penelope.

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Prior to the implementation of RCIA, other programs existed. Converts took private lessons from the parish priest. No one who just showed up at the door and said, "I've always been a pagan [or whatever else] but now I want to be a Catholic" was just granted access to the sacraments. It. Has. Never. Worked. That. Way.

It has. Guys used to just go round baptising everyone, everywhere.

Don't.Be.So.Mad.You.Tyoe.Like.This. It's an informal conversation on the internet. There's no need to be so rude. Lighten up, it will do you good.
 

Offline Mr.Crowley

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2014, 09:01:10 PM »
You're entirely outside of the teaching of the Church, Mr. Crowley, and your advice to the OP is spiritually ruinous.

Ruinous? That's stupid. If little children can get the sacraments without knowing how to tie their shoelaces, there's no reason why a young man can't.
 

Offline LouisIX

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Re: Question About The Brown Scapular
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2014, 09:06:07 PM »
You're entirely outside of the teaching of the Church, Mr. Crowley, and your advice to the OP is spiritually ruinous.

Ruinous? That's stupid. If little children can get the sacraments without knowing how to tie their shoelaces, there's no reason why a young man can't.

Actually there is.  Children are catechized before all sacraments but baptism (and sometimes confirmation) and the reason infants are baptized (and sometimes confirmed) is not because they do not need to understand the sacrament but because the Church recognizes that sponsors may stand in their place.  Has the Church always been wrong in doing this?  Is the Church wrong in stating that children must wait until the age of reason before receiving the sacraments of the Eucharist and Penance so that they understand the gravity of said sacraments? 

You're not thinking straight here.  The very history of the Church proves you wrong, unless you want to state that the Church has always been wrong and continues so today.
IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.