Author Topic: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.  (Read 16461 times)

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2014, 02:11:00 PM »
What makes antipew people nuts?  They are a protestant innovation, no?  So why clutter the church with them?

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Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2014, 02:13:35 PM »
What makes antipew people nuts?  They are a protestant innovation, no?  So why clutter the church with them?

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Um sarcasm?
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2014, 02:21:19 PM »
What makes antipew people nuts?  They are a protestant innovation, no?  So why clutter the church with them?

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Um sarcasm?

Nope

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Offline dueSicilie

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2014, 02:24:05 PM »
It's because they want you to stand for the sake of trying to be as little like those rascally barbarian frankish latins as possible
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Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2014, 02:35:54 PM »
Since when are pews for the faithful considered a protty innovation.

 all I want to do is sit my white a** down. The working man rests on Sundays.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 03:58:34 PM by voxxpopulisuxx »
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Offline 3Sanctus

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2014, 03:54:12 PM »
Why does it have to be that the pews were removed?  What if they were never there in the first place?  The only Orthodox churches in this area that I've been to that have pews were previously Protestant churches.  The home-grown groups that got their own space for the Divine Liturgy never had any pews.  One has a few folding chairs in the back that everyone lets the older ladies have and the other has a few seats along both side walls, with a little bench in the back, but no pews.

The local Ruthenian parish has pews, which were taken from a local NO parish when new ones were purchased for the parish, but the original pews were there when the Mennonite group that sold the building to the Ruthenian parish decide to move on and sell the church.

I don't see how pews can be considered sinful or any such mess, but they are certainly a Protestant innovation.  I would love to see proof of pews covering the church floor in a church that is, say 1000-1500 years old.  While I don't see why a priest (and it should be the clergy's choice, ultimately, though seating should always be available for those who truly need it) can't decide whether or not to have pews in his parish, not having pews is definitely more traditional, regardless of rite.
 

Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2014, 03:59:57 PM »
Is air conditioning a protty innovation too?
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Offline 3Sanctus

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2014, 04:06:09 PM »
Is air conditioning a protty innovation too?

That is not at all analogous to pews.  Wooden benches far predate the Earthly Ministry of Christ, air conditioning doesn't.

If you wish to assert pews were not a Protestant innovation, please provide your evidence of pews being used in churches prior to the invention of Protestantism.  I know of no such proof.

Like I said, though, I'm not asserting pews are in any way not allowable.  I would prefer the clergy make the decision of their installation, but I wouldn't argue with a priest one way or the other about the subject.  I can have a perfectly fine worship experience with or without pews and cannot say pews or the lack therefore has ever made or broken my participation in any religious rites in any parish.
 

Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2014, 04:09:08 PM »
Is air conditioning a protty innovation too?

That is not at all analogous to pews.  Wooden benches far predate the Earthly Ministry of Christ, air conditioning doesn't.

If you wish to assert pews were not a Protestant innovation, please provide your evidence of pews being used in churches prior to the invention of Protestantism.  I know of no such proof.

Like I said, though, I'm not asserting pews are in any way not allowable.  I would prefer the clergy make the decision of their installation, but I wouldn't argue with a priest one way or the other about the subject.  I can have a perfectly fine worship experience with or without pews and cannot say pews or the lack therefore has ever made or broken my participation in any religious rites in any parish.
Im not getting into a fight over benches....whats wrong with sitting down during Liturgy except at certain important points...also the idea that kneeling should be anathema to eastern riters is another idiocy.
Also define pew...to me it is another name for a bench with a back...and I find it ridiculous to assert there was no such thing as a bench with a back before the 1500s
Lord Jesus Christ Most High Son of God have Mercy On Me a Sinner (Jesus Prayer)

“You can never cross the ocean until you have the courage to lose sight of the shore.” – Christopher Columbus
911!
"Let my name stand among those who are willing to bear ridicule and reproach for the truth's sake, and so earn some right to rejoice when the victory is won. "— Louisa May Alcott

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Geocentrism holds no possible atheistic downside.
 

Offline 3Sanctus

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2014, 04:22:13 PM »
Is air conditioning a protty innovation too?

That is not at all analogous to pews.  Wooden benches far predate the Earthly Ministry of Christ, air conditioning doesn't.

If you wish to assert pews were not a Protestant innovation, please provide your evidence of pews being used in churches prior to the invention of Protestantism.  I know of no such proof.

Like I said, though, I'm not asserting pews are in any way not allowable.  I would prefer the clergy make the decision of their installation, but I wouldn't argue with a priest one way or the other about the subject.  I can have a perfectly fine worship experience with or without pews and cannot say pews or the lack therefore has ever made or broken my participation in any religious rites in any parish.
Im not getting into a fight over benches....whats wrong with sitting down during Liturgy except at certain important points...also the idea that kneeling should be anathema to eastern riters is another idiocy.
Also define pew...to me it is another name for a bench with a back...and I find it ridiculous to assert there was no such thing as a bench with a back before the 1500s

I never said there was anything wrong with it.  Like I said, either a church filled with pews or with only seating for those who genuinely need it is fine with me (not having seating for those who need it would be uncharitable and not very Christlike).  That said, regardless of the seating situation, or lack thereof, all Christians should follow the genuine and proper norms of any liturgical celebration they attend.  As long as that is observed, whatever else they do is all about personal preference (the local OCA parish has a family who all kneel and prostate themselves during the Anaphora and during the Great Entrance - I've never noticed anyone at all saying or looking at them strangely, though her youngest son is absolutely adorable and hilarious, lol).

As I pointed out previously, what I am talking about is a church full of pews.  That is to say, benches with backs filling the vast majority of the space designated for the laity during worship has no history in Christian churches prior to the Protestant Reformation - that is my understanding of the matter.  If you know this to be untrue, I'd be very interested in being properly informed as to the reality of this matter.

If you assertion is simply that pews existed (under whatever name they were called prior to the Reformation, if the name was different) as benches with backs, then we're in agreement - benches with backs far predate the Protestant Reformation.
 

Offline Machaut1377

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2014, 04:39:53 PM »
Of course benches with backs were around before 1500, just not in churches.

Kneeling in the eastern rites is the posture of penance and with every Sunday basically being a mini-Easter such a posture is inappropriate.
Also, pews I am told get in the way of prostrations.
 

Offline voxxpopulisuxx

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2014, 04:40:46 PM »
No I dont disagree that the pews in churches you describe have no precedent before this time..But I dont understand whats "protty? about it?
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Offline Machaut1377

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2014, 05:09:44 PM »
No I dont disagree that the pews in churches you describe have no precedent before this time..But I dont understand whats "protty? about it?

Pews were used in order to listen better to the sermon, the focal point of Protestant services.
 

Offline Machaut1377

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2014, 05:10:33 PM »
Rest assured, however, pews aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
 

Offline Parresia

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Re: A Very Teen explanation of the Byzantine Liturgy.
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2014, 05:27:56 PM »
Im not getting into a fight over benches....whats wrong with sitting down during Liturgy except at certain important points...

Agreed.  In the Latin Church Monks have been sitting in their choir stalls for a very long time, so I don't see big deal with the laity doing so as well. 

The one history of pews I was able to find suggested that they started showing up in Catholic Churches in about 1050 or so, which would certainly predate the reformation.