Author Topic: I like video games  (Read 8684 times)

Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 06:31:28 PM »
Pæniteo, no thoughts on my post?   :P

Some, but I did not post them.

Your post did not address the moral question sufficiently and I did not want to disagree with your personal view. I am looking for moral certainty/safety, rather than convincing people to play video games.
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 06:34:11 PM »
Pæniteo, no thoughts on my post?   :P

Some, but I did not post them.

Your post did not address the moral question sufficiently and I did not want to disagree with your personal view. I am looking for moral certainty/safety, rather than convincing people to play video games.

But that's just "the thing" - how can videogames be justified in the first place, given the sloth issue (as described) alone?
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 06:36:48 PM »

But that's just "the thing" - how can videogames be justified in the first place, given the sloth issue (as described) alone?

Sloth is inactivity when activity is required. Any form of entertainment is an occasion of sloth in the same way.

If one could show that video games were inordinately an occasion of sloth, that would be moral grounds for a widespread condemnation of the form, but otherwise, video games are similar to other past times probably.
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 06:39:13 PM »
If one could show that video games were inordinately an occasion of sloth, that would be moral grounds for a widespread condemnation of the form, but otherwise, video games are similar to other past times probably.

Certain MMORPG such as World of Warcraft come to mind...
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 06:41:14 PM »
If one could show that video games were inordinately an occasion of sloth, that would be moral grounds for a widespread condemnation of the form, but otherwise, video games are similar to other past times probably.

Certain MMORPG such as World of Warcraft come to mind...

Experience talking? :)

I never played a MMORPG.

FPS, and an occasional dabble in other genres.
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2013, 06:46:31 PM »
If one could show that video games were inordinately an occasion of sloth, that would be moral grounds for a widespread condemnation of the form, but otherwise, video games are similar to other past times probably.

Certain MMORPG such as World of Warcraft come to mind...

Experience talking? :)

I never played a MMORPG.

FPS, and an occasional dabble in other genres.

Experience, yes - a cousin of mine disappeared for an entire summer to play the thing in his basement.

But I would think FPS especially poses a moral problem - why are you playing a game in which you effect the appearance of violent images on a screen for you to view?  Lately this is the question I've pondered, as I, too, have done my share of "dabbling" with such videogames.

And I entirely forgot to mention Minecraft in all of this!
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2013, 07:12:08 PM »
But I would think FPS especially poses a moral problem - why are you playing a game in which you effect the appearance of violent images on a screen for you to view?  Lately this is the question I've pondered, as I, too, have done my share of "dabbling" with such videogames.
This aspect of the moral question is the same as violence in film and TV isn't it?

Quote
And I entirely forgot to mention Minecraft in all of this!
I saw somebody playing that recently and I thought "wow, one could do so much..." and then I resolved not to play it at all. Games like that would lead to excess playing in me at least. Games need a defined beginning and end for me.

That is one of the reasons why I liked FPS...it is usually quite linear. The newfangled gadgets with their online playing, achievements, and the like have changed this though.
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2013, 07:19:22 PM »
But I would think FPS especially poses a moral problem - why are you playing a game in which you effect the appearance of violent images on a screen for you to view?  Lately this is the question I've pondered, as I, too, have done my share of "dabbling" with such videogames.
This aspect of the moral question is the same as violence in film and TV isn't it?

It is related, but distinct - in film and TV the viewer passively observes violent images, whereas in playing videogames, the viewer as player effects each violent image by his own volition.

Quote
And I entirely forgot to mention Minecraft in all of this!
I saw somebody playing that recently and I thought "wow, one could do so much..." and then I resolved not to play it at all. Games like that would lead to excess playing in me at least. Games need a defined beginning and end for me.

That is one of the reasons why I liked FPS...it is usually quite linear. The newfangled gadgets with their online playing, achievements, and the like have changed this though.

Interesting, I had not thought of linearity (or lack thereof) in videogames as something which could be construed, in a way, as moral.  And if you do have a propensity to "game to excess," then yes, steer clear of Minecraft!  It will devour your hours!  This is one instance in which I have some more (ahem) direct experience.
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2013, 07:23:49 PM »
It is related, but distinct - in film and TV the viewer passively observes violent images, whereas in playing videogames, the viewer as player effects each violent image by his own volition.
I would say passive participation would be worse, at least, as far as sloth goes.

Quote
Interesting, I had not thought of linearity (or lack thereof) in videogames as something which could be construed, in a way, as moral.  And if you do have a propensity to "game to excess," then yes, steer clear of Minecraft!  It will devour your hours!  This is one instance in which I have some more (ahem) direct experience.

In my intro thread, I wrote about beating Halo in Legendary. I "beat" the game. That is what I like. Endless achievements and things to do is not something I find fun. I do not game to excess in itself, but I am somewhat of a perfectionist, and if I start something, I want to finish it. So, anything I do has to have some end, and for games, that means "winning".
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2013, 07:38:26 PM »
It is related, but distinct - in film and TV the viewer passively observes violent images, whereas in playing videogames, the viewer as player effects each violent image by his own volition.
I would say passive participation would be worse, at least, as far as sloth goes.

Here I beg to differ - and not for the sake of contrarianism!  Whereas the passive observation (for it is only observation, not participation short of a "choose your own ending" novelty movie of the 1950s or before) of a film or TV series is outright sloth, videogames create the illusion of activity by the minimal movements required of the player (again, outside the motion-detecting systems/peripherals) in order to effect changes within the game, be they violent or otherwise.  Moving one's thumb forward in order to watch one's character in a game run or (in first-person games) see the videogame world move as if one were running alone seems a deceptive cover for the player's sloth:  true, one moves one's body moreso in playing a videogame than in watching a movie/TV series (presumably,) but minimally so, and one is seemingly tricked into thinking one accomplishes much more than what is actually achieved.
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2013, 07:41:22 PM »
It is related, but distinct - in film and TV the viewer passively observes violent images, whereas in playing videogames, the viewer as player effects each violent image by his own volition.
I would say passive participation would be worse, at least, as far as sloth goes.

Here I beg to differ - and not for the sake of contrarianism!  Whereas the passive observation (for it is only observation, not participation short of a "choose your own ending" novelty movie of the 1950s or before) of a film or TV series is outright sloth, videogames create the illusion of activity by the minimal movements required of the player (again, outside the motion-detecting systems/peripherals) in order to effect changes within the game, be they violent or otherwise.  Moving one's thumb forward in order to watch one's character in a game run or (in first-person games) see the videogame world move as if one were running alone seems a deceptive cover for the player's sloth:  true, one moves one's body moreso in playing a videogame than in watching a movie/TV series (presumably,) but minimally so, and one is seemingly tricked into thinking one accomplishes much more than what is actually achieved.

Actually, there is a lot going on in the brain when playing a video game. It is a form of exercise in fact.

Bodily movements are not the only thing. I would not say Fruit Ninja on the Kinect is less likely to be slothful than Halo.
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2013, 07:50:34 PM »
Actually, there is a lot going on in the brain when playing a video game. It is a form of exercise in fact.

Depending on the game, I may cede your brain-exercise point (Portal, anyone?)  However, I do not know if it can yet be conclusively proven whether the effects of videogames on the brain in general are beneficial or not.  Some have argued that videogames may increase hand-eye coordination - again, I do not think enough research has been conducted to prove this either.

Bodily movements are not the only thing. I would not say Fruit Ninja on the Kinect is less likely to be slothful than Halo.

Of course it's about more than bodily movements - but it also goes even beyond that:  what about the attitudes that can be silently transplanted from game to player?
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2013, 07:51:54 PM »
Actually, there is a lot going on in the brain when playing a video game. It is a form of exercise in fact.

Depending on the game, I may cede your brain-exercise point (Portal, anyone?)  However, I do not know if it can yet be conclusively proven whether the effects of videogames on the brain in general are beneficial or not.  Some have argued that videogames may increase hand-eye coordination - again, I do not think enough research has been conducted to prove this either.

Morally, it is less important. It doesn't hurt in itself, that is clear.

Quote
Of course it's about more than bodily movements - but it also goes even beyond that:  what about the attitudes that can be silently transplanted from game to player?
Isn't passive viewing of images more significant in that regard?
 

Offline tmw89

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2013, 08:10:32 PM »
Quote
Of course it's about more than bodily movements - but it also goes even beyond that:  what about the attitudes that can be silently transplanted from game to player?
Isn't passive viewing of images more significant in that regard?

No.  In the passive observation of images, one may accept or reject on their own immediate terms what the medium - movie or TV series - postulates.  For example, watching the movie Jurassic Park the problems of technological developments for their own sake and for the point of profitable exploitation are presented to the viewer, and the viewer is free during or afterward to accept or reject the film's arguments in dialogue (Malcolm at the dinner, later Ellie Saddler and Hammond over a meal) and action (the tour of the facility culminating in the hatching velociraptors, the Tyrannosaurus breaking free of its environment's purportedly electrified barrier), thus leaving the viewer to determine their own attitude.  In videogames, players are immersed in the "heat of the moment," pressed into making choices which could be of any kind, frivolous or moral, possibly within a time constraint.  See the last few games by Bethesda Softworks for example here.  As such, I tend to think the videogame is far more problematic in this regard.
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Offline Pæniteo

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Re: I like video games
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2013, 08:16:04 PM »
No.  In the passive observation of images, one may accept or reject on their own immediate terms what the medium - movie or TV series - postulates.  For example, watching the movie Jurassic Park the problems of technological developments for their own sake and for the point of profitable exploitation are presented to the viewer, and the viewer is free during or afterward to accept or reject the film's arguments in dialogue (Malcolm at the dinner, later Ellie Saddler and Hammond over a meal) and action (the tour of the facility culminating in the hatching velociraptors, the Tyrannosaurus breaking free of its environment's purportedly electrified barrier), thus leaving the viewer to determine their own attitude.  In videogames, players are immersed in the "heat of the moment," pressed into making choices which could be of any kind, frivolous or moral, possibly within a time constraint.  See the last few games by Bethesda Softworks for example here.  As such, I tend to think the videogame is far more problematic in this regard.

I think movies are worse in this regard.

It is film and TV which makes people think things are "normal" because they are "normal" in the film. It is film and TV which makes people think men should look like 12 year boys and women should look like Barbies.

It is the bad habits of people online, on bad websites, passively (yes, passively) accepting images and sounds into their brains.