Reading the Bible Fun Thoughts Thread

[TerrorDæmonum]

Slaves simply lack faith.

This is false. Slaves of men have the same interior liberty and there is no distinction in that regard.

Article 2. Whether a slave can marry without his master's consent?

On the contrary, "In Christ Jesus . . . there is neither bond nor free" (Galatians 3:26-28). Therefore both freeman and bondsman enjoy the same liberty to marry in the faith of Christ Jesus.

Further, slavery is of positive law; whereas marriage is of natural and Divine law. Since then positive law is not prejudicial to the natural or the Divine law, it would seem that a slave can marry without his master's consent.

I answer that, As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 3), the positive law arises out of the natural law, and consequently slavery, which is of positive law, cannot be prejudicious to those things that are of natural law. Now just as nature seeks the preservation of the individual, so does it seek the preservation of the species by means of procreation; wherefore even as a slave is not so subject to his master as not to be at liberty to eat, sleep, and do such things as pertain to the needs of his body, and without which nature cannot be preserved, so he is not subject to him to the extent of being unable to marry freely, even without his master's knowledge or consent.

Furthermore, Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort has written on the subject which is worth considering:

These words of the Holy Spirit show that Jesus is the sole source and must be the sole end of all our good works, and that we must serve him not just as paid servants but as slaves of love. Let me explain what I mean.

There are two ways of belonging to another person and being subject to his authority. One is by ordinary service and the other is by slavery. And so we must use the terms "servant" and "slave". Ordinary service in Christian countries is when a man is employed to serve another for a certain length of time at a wage which is fixed or agreed upon. When a man is totally dependent on another for life, and must serve his master without expecting any wages or recompense, when he is treated just like a beast of the field over which the owner has the right of life and death, then it is slavery.

Now there are three kinds of slavery; natural slavery, enforced slavery, and voluntary slavery. All creatures are slaves of God in the first sense, for "the earth and its fullness belong to the Lord". The devils and the damned are slaves in the second sense. The saints in heaven and the just on earth are slaves in the third sense. Voluntary slavery is the most perfect of all three states, for by it we give the greatest glory to God, who looks into the heart and wants it to be given to him. Is he not indeed called the God of the heart or of the loving will? For by this slavery we freely choose God and his service before all things, even if we were not by our very nature obliged to do so.

There is a world of difference between a servant and a slave.

...

No other human state involves belonging more completely to another than slavery. Among Christian peoples, nothing makes a person belong more completely to Jesus and his holy Mother than voluntary slavery. Our Lord himself gave us the example of this when out of love for us he "took the form of a slave". Our Lady gave us the same example when she called herself the handmaid or slave of the Lord. The Apostle considered it an honour to be called "slave of Christ". Several times in Holy Scripture, Christians are referred to as "slaves of Christ".

Granting this, I say that we must belong to Jesus and serve him not just as hired servants but as willing slaves who, moved by generous love, commit themselves to his service after the manner of slaves for the honour of belonging to him. Before we were baptized we were the slaves of the devil, but baptism made us the slaves of Jesus. Christians must be either the slaves of the devil or the slaves of Jesus Christ.

[TerrorDæmonum]

Furthermore, the scripture of Saint Paul's Letter to Philemon illustrates this quite well: a slave, Onesimus, under Roman law converted to the faith and was a brother in faith to his master (who was also Christian), but he was still a slave under the positive law.

Paul sent Onesimus back to Philemon: the institution of slavery was not in itself any impediment to the faith or the person's ability to exercise their own will in accepting the faith and acting morally.

If your ideas were true, then this would not have happened.

[Philip G.]

A slave has a master that is not the Lord.  Jesus said, "no man can serve two masters". 

[TerrorDæmonum]

A slave has a master that is not the Lord.  Jesus said, "no man can serve two masters".

So, you are finally acknowledging that one must be a slave of the Lord?

You are on the right track now.

Christians must be either the slaves of the devil or the slaves of Jesus Christ.

However, you just need to distinguish between the authorities: God has ultimate authority and is obeyed in all things, but superiors and secular authorities are obeyed in some things.

The same applies to slaves.

[Philip G.]

Christendom is a society of servants and friends.  Anti-Christendom is a society of Lord(s) and slaves.  Jesus said, "Antichrist cometh, and in me he hath not a thing."  If there be only one antichrist in the end times, that societal design would fit all others to be slaves.  As antichrist hath not a thing in Christ, those who observe it's proxy, which is that all be slaves, suffer the same fate.  It is the spirit of antichrist.

[TerrorDæmonum]

Christendom is a society of servants and friends.  Anti-Christendom is a society of Lord(s) and slaves.  Jesus said, "Antichrist cometh, and in me he hath not a thing."  If there be only one antichrist in the end times, that societal design would fit all others to be slaves.  As antichrist hath not a thing in Christ, those who observe it's proxy, which is that all be slaves, suffer the same fate.  It is the spirit of antichrist.

So, as a response to those scriptural citations and the work of Saint Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort , are you claiming that scripture, Saint Louis de Montfort, St Thomas Aquinas and all theologians, are working as "anti-Christ"?

I included the quote which carefully distinguished servants and slaves and the types of slavery. You reject all that?

[james03]

Christendom is a society of servants and friends.

That's a balanced way to look at it:

And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. [7] Therefore now he is not a servant, but a son. And if a son, an heir also through God.

You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. [15] I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

But He maintains the servant language later:

Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

[Philip G.]

And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. [7] Therefore now he is not a servant, but a son. And if a son, an heir also through God.

That is a good one.  And, the thing is, this happens all the time in a healthy society.  I read wester novels, and it happens all the time in them as well.  As a gardener/property manager/laborer/you name it, I have many customers that treat me very well.  And, I am simply a servant.  But I go about my business in a unique way, and I gain other's trust, and relations are great.  This and more is possible in a society of servants and friends, because they have something "good" in common.  In a society of lords and slaves, there is no way to bridge the gap.  Because, you don't become a prince.  You are born a prince.  You don't become a slave.  As aristotle would say, slaves are born.  Opposites attract, but only on a carnal/physical level.  In Christendom, where life is lived in spirit and truth, like attracts like. 

[TerrorDæmonum]

That is a good one.  And, the thing is, this happens all the time in a healthy society.  I read wester novels, and it happens all the time in them as well.  As a gardener/property manager/laborer/you name it, I have many customers that treat me very well.  And, I am simply a servant.  But I go about my business in a unique way, and I gain other's trust, and relations are great.  This and more is possible in a society of servants and friends, because they have something "good" in common.  In a society of lords and slaves, there is no way to bridge the gap.  Because, you don't become a prince.  You are born a prince.  You don't become a slave.  As aristotle would say, slaves are born.  Opposites attract, but only on a carnal/physical level.  In Christendom, where life is lived in spirit and truth, like attracts like.

Do you think those quotes are meant to deny the absolute dominion of God over all of creation?

You are interpreting scripture and rejecting every understanding of it but your own warping of it.

[james03]

I read wester novels,

Have you read "Brings the Lightning" by Peter Grant?  New author.  I did not read it, but my son did and liked it.  He also has a sequel: "Rocky Mountain Retribution".

[Philip G.]

I read wester novels,

Have you read "Brings the Lightning" by Peter Grant?  New author.  I did not read it, but my son did and liked it.  He also has a sequel: "Rocky Mountain Retribution".

Thanks for the reference.  I had not heard of him, but I just looked at the cover images of his books, and they do spark the imagination.  I was just reminded of the book "the prince and the pauper".  You cannot have one without the other.  Yet, they have no relationship.  What do we call family members outside of the nuclear family?  They are called relatives. 

Outside of family and relatives, which you cannot marry, you have neighbors of your parish community/societal community.  Spouses are sourced from among these, which in a healthy normal society can comprise the whole.  Matrimony not only brings about new life, and two life long companions.  It can also bridge gaps in the community, and result in an intangible macro manifestation parallel the tangible micro manifestation of offspring.  And this intangible macro manifestation, in the sense that it affects all, is a happy death.

Contrast that with the prince/pauper/slave/lord society.  Spouses can never be sourced from certain factions in that society be it a Romeo Juliet example on one hand, or a more monarchy/royal example of a princess kissing a frog.  Marriages are either sourced from other aristocratic ruling elites, or in the case of monarchy, from a distant earthly kingdom/dominion in order to establish an alliance to further entrench the world in relations that certainly do not qualify, as they always result in cloak and dagger politics.  These extremes also give rise to actions taken by counter factions in society such as the rothchilds, who only marry within the family/among their cousins.  All of these are abuses, and they occur in the lord/slave society.  Whether you observe the whole, or a part makes little difference.  The curse of the mark follows all.