Author Topic: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix  (Read 1752 times)

Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2021, 05:11:14 PM »
K.W.
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Which leaves us with a possible third option:

The Church is based upon the Apostolic Faith handed to the Apostles by Christ himself and Sacred Scripture irrespective of the interpretation by the magisterium made up of men with the fallen nature of Adam. Most times the magisterium gets it right, sometimes they don't. Buyer beware!

Who watches over the watchers? The Holy Ghost is suppose too but if the hierarchy decides to go their own way contrary to the prompting of the Holy Ghost and the Apostolic Faith well the Holy Ghost has no way of stopping them. They have their free will as any man does.
Its the Magisterium that told us what books were inspired and which belonged in the collection of Sacred Scripture. Also, what is their true meaning. Look at the Protestant concept of "free examen"; it leads to doctrinal chaos. The same for Sacred Tradition; it was the Magisterium that determined which doctrines belonged to the deposit of the faith and which did not; which teachings were heretical and which were not.
Look at some of the people on this forum, who have decided to throw out the guidance of the magisterium and now espouse various errors condemned by the same Magisterium. The Holy Ghost protects the Pope from teaching error to the Church or leading the faithful into perdition; but the Conciliar Popes have done both; they lack the protection promised to the Popes by Our Lord Himself. Draw the necessary conclusions.

So your point being?

Who protected the Church and the faithful from Pope Honorius and his allowing error to spread unchecked throughout the Church and among the faithful?

Who protected the Church from John XXII and his error of preaching that those who died in the faith did not see the presence of God until the Last Judgment? He continued this argument for a time in sermons while he was pope and even imprisoned a English monk who spoke out against his heretical sermons. John XXII held this view for many years which was considered by the wide body of the Church to be heretical. John XXII remained a pope until his death.

Who has protected the Church and the faithful from Vatican II and its many errors?

Who has protected the Church and the faithful from JPII's and Francis's attacks on the death penalty?

Who has protected the Church and the faithful from JPII's and Francis's full scale attacks on "no salvation outside the Church"?

Who has protected the Church and the faithful from Francis's attack on sacramental marriage in Amoris Laetia?

There is only one really true answer. The Apostolic Faith that sustains the Church that has been handled down faithfully for the last 2000 years. Most of the time it protected by the hierarchy but many times by the faithful. Depending ALWAYS on the hierarchy makes a mockery of history.

Where was the hierarchy from 1500's to 1865 in Japan? Not there. It was the faithful who kept and protected the apostolic faith.

Soon the laity will keep the Apostolic faith in a hidden underground church without clergy or hierarchy as the Japanese Catholics did.



« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 05:31:03 PM by King Wenceslas »
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2021, 05:52:44 PM »
K.W.
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So your point being?
My point is that the Ecclesiology in your solution is defective i.e. Not in accord with the Ecclessiology of the Church. Christ established a "magisterium" composed of Bishops under the Pope; this Magisterium is guaranteed to always "get it right" and not just "most of the time'' otherwise Catholics would be left to decide for themselves what parts belong to "most of the time" and what parts don't i.e. "Free examen'' a la Protestantism.
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Who protected the Church and the faithful from Pope Honorius and his allowing error to spread unchecked throughout the Church and among the faithful?
Pope Honorius was derelict in his duty to repress error; but he was not guilty of teaching or promoting the error. The protection given to Peter and his successors does not guarantee that they will always fulfill their duty to the most perfect degree.
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Who protected the Church from John XXII and his error of preaching that those who died in the faith did not see the presence of God until the Last Judgment? He continued this argument for a time in sermons while he was pope and even imprisoned a English monk who spoke out against his heretical sermons. John XXII held this view for many years which was considered by the wide body of the Church to be heretical. John XXII remained a pope until his death.
Pope John taught this as a private theologian; and even then he himself avowed that he did this in a form of a Scholastic disputation not as a teaching to be held; he also claimed that he  "always held to the Catholic doctrine" i.e. The immediate entrance of souls into heaven at the moment of death (D-H.990-991)
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Who has protected the Church and the faithful from Vatican II and its many errors?
Right; if the "dudes" were true Popes, then Vatican II would have taught the true Catholic doctrine and nobody would have to "Protect the Church and the faithful from its errors". Because the Church being the spotless bride of Christ and the "foundation of truth" cannot bring in error or corruption.
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Who has protected the Church and the faithful from JPII's and Francis's attacks on the death penalty?

Who has protected the Church and the faithful from JPII's and Francis's full scale attacks on "no salvation outside the Church"?

Who has protected the Church and the faithful from Francis's attack on sacramental marriage in Amoris Laetia?
Ditto.
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There is only one really true answer. The Apostolic Faith that sustains the Church that has been handled down faithfully for the last 2000 years. Most of the time by hierarchy but many time by the faithful. Depending ALWAYS on the hierarchy makes a mockery of history.
There would  be no way of knowing what belonged to the Apostostolic faith if the Church would not have been able through its Hierarchy been protected from introducing errors and corruption into said Apostolic faith. That is why when the hierarchy started teaching doctrines contrary to said Apostolic faith in the 1960's Catholics immediately could sense that something was very wrong; not everybody reacted in the same way; some decided that "Oh well, since Church doctrine can change; why bother" and left the Church. Others that "Well its the Pope even if he is wrong; "its better to be wrong with the Pope than right against him"; and the smaller number, stopped listening to the Pope and set up their own private chapels and hunkered down with their traditional Catechisms and set to preserve their faith.
So how does one explain the massive failure of the Hierarchy in a manner that is compatible with Church teaching? Sede Vacantism is one solution; R&R is another; take your pick.
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Where was the hierarchy from 1600's to 1800's in Japan. Not there. It was the faithful who kept the apostolic faith.
Yes, it survived after being planted there by missionaries faithful to the Popes; and it did not survive entire and unscathed by years of hiding and dissimulation behind the facade of Paganism. 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2021, 08:44:30 PM »
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The protection given to Peter and his successors does not guarantee that they will always fulfill their duty to the most perfect degree.

I think with Honorius a case could be made for something stronger given how he was condemned posthumously by an Ecumenical Council some 42 years later, as a 'the confirmer of the heresy and contradictor of himself' using in his very letter an heretical form of words indicating, at best, a willingness to be ambiguous on whether Christ had a single will. A later Pope held he was not a heretic as such, but allowed the Faith to be undermined. The Catholic Encyclopaedia says: 'He was a heretic, not in intention, but in fact...'

The French King nearly physically threatened John XXII if he did not cease to defend his opinion. Prudently his supposedly private Beatific Vision speculations were declared heretical.

Co-Redemptrix has not been solemnly defined, and probably only has been taught in an identifiable way from maybe the early nineteenth century. On its own, it cannot be taken as evidence, but in the context of all that Francis says, it sustains a case that Francis is heretical, that he holds an attitude to much Catholic devotion similar to Paul VI which Yves Chiron reports considered to be substantially 'unbiblical'
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2021, 02:56:10 PM »
Re. Honorius,
Pope Leo III (if memory serves me right); approved the condemnation of Honorius but in a letter to a bishop in Spain, declared the sense of the condemnation; in that Honorius did not teach heresy and indeed his letters do not contain an heresy or approval of it; but of a failure to actively repress the heresy.
On John XXII; he publicly avowed that he never held the controverted opinion but rather presented it in a form of scholastic disputation; he died the day after making the public declaration;It practically amounts to a death bed confession.
I agree that denial of the title of Co-Redemptrix is not strictly speaking heretical; however it is far from a disputed doctrine; Ott, In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, has it and "Mediatrix" of all graces as proximate to being definable as dogmas. While the title is only from the 19th C. The very concept of the B.V.M. Co-operation goes all the way back to the Church fathers who portrayed her as the "Second Eve" in co-operating with the New Adam in our salvation; plus the two liturgical feastdays of Our Lady of Seven Dolors. So I also agree with you this is just another manifestation of Francis' unCatholic mindset. 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2021, 07:20:05 PM »
I would like to add something else about the survival of Catholicism in our time, without the aid of the Magisterium (referring back to the appeal to "Sacred Tradition", Catechisms, etc.); look at this forum, here we are practically all self identified as "traditionalist Roman Catholics" i.e. Catholics that are determined to profess and practice the Catholic faith even if we have to shed our blood to do it. And yet, look at all the divergent and even scandalous posts that we find here, denying what Catholics 60 years ago would never even think of doing, such as; The Infallibility of Church Councils (real Church Councils) such as Vatican I; the titles of Our Blessed Mother as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; the Church's condemnation of the errors of Jansenism; the Catholic teaching on the indissolubility of Holy Matrimony, even in the case of adultery; one poster who accepts the teaching of Vatican I, but who claimed that it defined Papal Infallibility and the rest is not binding or it did not teach anything else. I can't think of anything else, but the picture is not the most encouraging one. What is to become of us if this crisis in authority goes on for another 50 or 60 years?  That is why Our Lord established a Church with the authority to teach; define and safeguard the truth, because written documents cannot speak or interpret themselves.
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"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2021, 09:51:59 AM »
Hyperdulia:  The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son. "The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66). (Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.)
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2021, 11:36:10 AM »
I wish Pope Francis would read and accept Maria Valtorta. Two of the Pope's recent errors are clarified in that book: it is clearly stated, by Our Lord Himself, that Judas died in his sins and was damned, after refusing the Forgiveness and Mercy promised him, if he repented, by Our Lady Herself, the Mediatrix of All Graces. Likewise, Ven. Mary of Agreda teaches Judas was lost and went to the lowest spot in hell. And it's also taught, again by Our Lady and Our Lord Himself, that the Blessed Mother is Mediatrix of All Graces, and Co-Redemptrix with Christ. This same doctrine is also taught by Ven. Mary of Agreda, who refers to it as "Mary Immaculate, Expiatrix of the fault of Eve". Expiatrix is an equivalent word for Reparatrix/Co-Redemptrix. In Ven Mary's time, Immaculate Conception had not yet been defined. So many benefits if the Roman authorities would read these two Saintly Mystics and adhere to their orthodox doctrine.

I do not agree Co-Redemptrix originates only recently. Co-Redemptress is used by St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church, and St. Albert the Great, Teacher of St. Thomas, and himself also a Doctor of the Church, also uses an equivalent term, "Co-Helper of Redemption". The Fathers unanimously teach that as death came through Eve, life came through Mary. This is the deep meaning of Mary being New Eve and Mother of Redeemed Humanity. Mary alone is the Mother of every Baptized Christian soul and uniquely participates in their Redemption and Regeneration in Christ when they are justified. The whole Church bears witness that the Immaculate Mother of God co-operates in dispensing both daily and everyday graces, by praying the Rosary throughout the day, in fulfilment of the Scriptural prophesy, "All generations will call Me Blessed", and the whole Church also bears witness that we expect the final and last Grace, the Great Grace of Final Perseverance, from the hands and Immaculate Heart of the Mother of God, by requesting Her prayers in the hour of our death. Countless souls have undoubtedly been saved through Mother Mary's Intercession who otherwise would be helplessly lost.

There are three aspects of the proposed definition, and it has received support from 8 Million Catholics, including 800 Bishops, numerous Cardinals, and even recent Popes. It was supported by Archbishop Lefebvre and some 500 Bishops at Vatican II who wanted a dogmatic definition on the subject. The SSPX Seminary in La Reja, Argentina, is called "Our Lady Co-Redemptrix". The three aspects are: (1) Mary as Advocate, which almost no Catholic ever denies. Our Lady clearly interceded at the Wedding of Cana, and the example of the Gebirah, the Queen Mother of Israel, interceding beside Solomon her son, further confirms and proves Mary is Our Heavenly Advocate, along with Her Son and His Spirit. (2) Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces, a doctrine that is explicitly found in Sacred Scripture, "24 I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. 25 In Me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in Me is all hope of life and of virtue. 26 Come over to Me, all ye that desire Me, and be filled with My fruits." (Sir 24:24-26) i.e. in Mary is all the Grace of Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life (Jn 14:6); and is the deep meaning of the reverent Angelical Salutation of Our Lady as the "Full of Grace" in the Ave Maria in Luk 1:28. Our Lady is Full of every Grace of Christ. (3) Our Lady as Suffering Co-Redemptrix, at the Foot of the Cross, where She became Our Mother in the midst of many Sorrows, as the Sword of St. Simeon pierced Her Immaculate Heart. Recall the ancient Promise of Gen 3:15 prophesies She would crush the head of the infernal serpent, and She crushed Him at the foot of the Cross by Her heroic obedience, more faithful than Abraham, in offering Her Son, and by the depth of Her sorrows in union with Christ Crucified, Her Divine Son. This is the 3rd aspect most hard for some to accept.

That's ok and, as with the Immaculate Conception, respectful inquiry is not forbidden until the time of the solemn definition by the Church.

Source: "In the preparatory phase of Vatican II about 300–500 bishops asked for a definition or formal statement of Marian mєdιαtion and 54 asked for a definition of Mary as co-redemptrix. Pope St. John XXIII, however, made it clear that the Council would not be seeking to proclaim new dogmas ... My reaction corresponds to a statement and an article published by Dr. Mark Miravalle, the President of Vox Populi Mariae mєdιαtrici, a group which has received support from 8 million Catholics—including 800 bishops—for a new dogma proclaiming Mary Co-redemptrix, mєdιαtrix of All Graces, and Advocate"  https://wherepeteris.com/pope-francis-and-mary-co-redemptrix/
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Offline Arvinger

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2021, 12:21:27 PM »
Which leaves us with a possible third option:

The Church is based upon the Apostolic Faith handed to the Apostles by Christ himself and Sacred Scripture irrespective of the interpretation by the magisterium made up of men with the fallen nature of Adam. Most times the magisterium gets it right, sometimes they don't. Buyer beware!

Who watches over the watchers? The Holy Ghost is suppose too but if the hierarchy decides to go their own way contrary to the prompting of the Holy Ghost and the Apostolic Faith well the Holy Ghost has no way of stopping them. They have their free will as any man does.

If that is the case, there is no epistemological reason to be a Catholic. If the Magisterium "sometimes gets it wrong", who is to guarantee it did not "get it wrong" at Trent, Vatican I, in St. Pius X's Pascendi or in Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors? Maybe the "buyers beware" attitude must be applied to the Council of Nicaea as well? Maybe the Second Council of Nicaea got it wrong and the veneration of images and statues is idolatry?

The point is, if we accept your "third option", the individual becomes a judge of what is correct and incorrect in the Magisterium, which is essentially Protestantism and unavoidable relativism.

Moreover, if the Church can sometimes be wrong, how do you even know that the Magisterium has authority in the first place and that the Catholic Church was really founded by Jesus Christ? Because the Magisterium says so? By your admission, it could be wrong. Because of your private intepretation of Matthew 16:18-19? Then it is just that, private interpretation which is liable to error.

With that solution Catholicism becomes yet another religion which has some truth mixed with some error, just like Islam or Judaism (both teach some things that are true), at best you can argue that the proportion of truth to error is better in Catholicism than in other religions. Therefore, your "third option" is no option at all.
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2021, 01:47:31 PM »
I would like to add something else about the survival of Catholicism in our time, without the aid of the Magisterium (referring back to the appeal to "Sacred Tradition", Catechisms, etc.); look at this forum, here we are practically all self identified as "traditionalist Roman Catholics" i.e. Catholics that are determined to profess and practice the Catholic faith even if we have to shed our blood to do it. And yet, look at all the divergent and even scandalous posts that we find here, denying what Catholics 60 years ago would never even think of doing, such as; The Infallibility of Church Councils (real Church Councils) such as Vatican I; the titles of Our Blessed Mother as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; the Church's condemnation of the errors of Jansenism; the Catholic teaching on the indissolubility of Holy Matrimony, even in the case of adultery; one poster who accepts the teaching of Vatican I, but who claimed that it defined Papal Infallibility and the rest is not binding or it did not teach anything else. I can't think of anything else, but the picture is not the most encouraging one. What is to become of us if this crisis in authority goes on for another 50 or 60 years?  That is why Our Lord established a Church with the authority to teach; define and safeguard the truth, because written documents cannot speak or interpret themselves.

Genuine authority is hard to find. There's online e-Popes, but they often confuse. Moreover terms like Jansenist have long been used other than in the condemned sense. At one time Ireland's biggest (and now only) seminary Maynooth was characterised as 'Jansenist,' I think this was used in the sense of a doctrinal severity many old priests still hate (see the antiques of the Association of Catholic Priests). Now Maynooth is a safe home for homo-heresy, that repulsed even Dolan of New York who conducted a visitation. The SSPX have their priests, their sacramental bishops and others have maybe this. Others under Rome have to keep looking over their shoulders. There would need to be more definite moderation here, but outside as a whole, the jannies are snoozing. Vatican 2 shattered authority. It will need a miracle to restore it,.
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2021, 04:20:20 PM »
"By their fruits you will know them".  So long as Louis de Montfort is the champion of the mary mediatrix, co-redemptrix, and the 5th marian dogma movement, the initiative will not enjoy passivity.  Teaching, as de montfort does, that Mary is to be likened to an earthly queen who has a duty as a result of her great dignity to own slaves, and in the fullest sense of the word slave; and can put them to death as her pleasure sees fit, no differently than I quote "one might put to death a horse" has no place in the traditional understanding of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God.  And, that is not all you will find in his works.  Read his works at your own risk. 

You can go down the list of today's trad clergy who practice and/or promote louis de montfort and/or his consecration/form of devotion, and they are all controversial at best and lamentable at worst.  The CMRI clergy, the premier usurper sedevacantist group, are all doing the de montfort consecration.  The Plinio de oliviera TFP disciples are doing the de montfort consecration after the example of their founder.  + Clarence Kelly of mixed opinion and founder of the cspv is constantly referencing louis de montfort positively in his reflections/newsletters.  The official feeneyite groups are "slaves" doing the de montfort consecrations.  Even Bishop Faure, who pulled an about face immediately after being consecrated may be doing the de montfort consecration(his private seminary is the louis de montfort seminary).  Do you really think +Williamson would have consecrated him if he knew that shortly after he was going to decree into existence a new religious congregation contrary to his own personal recommendation?  Conversely, the sspx was "canonically erected, and uncanonically suppressed."  It is totally different.  If you think that my posts are incoherent, read the thoroughly gnostic grimoire that survived the destruction of the french revolution solely because its adherents say it was fortunately hiding "in a box" only after to be discovered.  Or don't, because, on your own, you will likely be defeated by it. "By their fruits you shall know them."
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 04:25:53 PM by Philip G. »
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2021, 11:50:23 PM »
"By their fruits you will know them".  So long as Louis de Montfort is the champion of the mary mediatrix, co-redemptrix, and the 5th marian dogma movement, the initiative will not enjoy passivity.  Teaching, as de montfort does, that Mary is to be likened to an earthly queen who has a duty as a result of her great dignity to own slaves, and in the fullest sense of the word slave; and can put them to death as her pleasure sees fit, no differently than I quote "one might put to death a horse" has no place in the traditional understanding of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God.  And, that is not all you will find in his works.  Read his works at your own risk. 

You can go down the list of today's trad clergy who practice and/or promote louis de montfort and/or his consecration/form of devotion, and they are all controversial at best and lamentable at worst.  The CMRI clergy, the premier usurper sedevacantist group, are all doing the de montfort consecration.  The Plinio de oliviera TFP disciples are doing the de montfort consecration after the example of their founder.  + Clarence Kelly of mixed opinion and founder of the cspv is constantly referencing louis de montfort positively in his reflections/newsletters.  The official feeneyite groups are "slaves" doing the de montfort consecrations.  Even Bishop Faure, who pulled an about face immediately after being consecrated may be doing the de montfort consecration(his private seminary is the louis de montfort seminary).  Do you really think +Williamson would have consecrated him if he knew that shortly after he was going to decree into existence a new religious congregation contrary to his own personal recommendation?  Conversely, the sspx was "canonically erected, and uncanonically suppressed."  It is totally different.  If you think that my posts are incoherent, read the thoroughly gnostic grimoire that survived the destruction of the french revolution solely because its adherents say it was fortunately hiding "in a box" only after to be discovered.  Or don't, because, on your own, you will likely be defeated by it. "By their fruits you shall know them."

What is wrong with consecrating ourselves as a slave to Jesus through Mary?
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2021, 04:05:31 AM »
"By their fruits you will know them".  So long as Louis de Montfort is the champion of the mary mediatrix, co-redemptrix, and the 5th marian dogma movement, the initiative will not enjoy passivity.  Teaching, as de montfort does, that Mary is to be likened to an earthly queen who has a duty as a result of her great dignity to own slaves, and in the fullest sense of the word slave; and can put them to death as her pleasure sees fit, no differently than I quote "one might put to death a horse" has no place in the traditional understanding of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God.  And, that is not all you will find in his works.  Read his works at your own risk. 

You can go down the list of today's trad clergy who practice and/or promote louis de montfort and/or his consecration/form of devotion, and they are all controversial at best and lamentable at worst.  The CMRI clergy, the premier usurper sedevacantist group, are all doing the de montfort consecration.  The Plinio de oliviera TFP disciples are doing the de montfort consecration after the example of their founder.  + Clarence Kelly of mixed opinion and founder of the cspv is constantly referencing louis de montfort positively in his reflections/newsletters.  The official feeneyite groups are "slaves" doing the de montfort consecrations.  Even Bishop Faure, who pulled an about face immediately after being consecrated may be doing the de montfort consecration(his private seminary is the louis de montfort seminary).  Do you really think +Williamson would have consecrated him if he knew that shortly after he was going to decree into existence a new religious congregation contrary to his own personal recommendation?  Conversely, the sspx was "canonically erected, and uncanonically suppressed."  It is totally different.  If you think that my posts are incoherent, read the thoroughly gnostic grimoire that survived the destruction of the french revolution solely because its adherents say it was fortunately hiding "in a box" only after to be discovered.  Or don't, because, on your own, you will likely be defeated by it. "By their fruits you shall know them."

What is wrong with consecrating ourselves as a slave to Jesus through Mary?

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".  There are no slaves in heaven.  Just as King Herod and Pharoah are not babysitters, the Virgin Mary, queen of heaven, ancíllae suae, is not a slave owner.  God doesn't put to death a human like a horse.  God defeats death.  Like I have said, the Virgin Mary did not die. 

Pharoah had to be drowned in the sea, and Herod had to die before Christ would return to their land.  We are seemingly talking about an unforgivable sin here. 

« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 04:47:57 AM by Philip G. »
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline Philip G.

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2021, 04:40:30 AM »
"By their fruits you will know them".  So long as Louis de Montfort is the champion of the mary mediatrix, co-redemptrix, and the 5th marian dogma movement, the initiative will not enjoy passivity.  Teaching, as de montfort does, that Mary is to be likened to an earthly queen who has a duty as a result of her great dignity to own slaves, and in the fullest sense of the word slave; and can put them to death as her pleasure sees fit, no differently than I quote "one might put to death a horse" has no place in the traditional understanding of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God.  And, that is not all you will find in his works.  Read his works at your own risk. 

You can go down the list of today's trad clergy who practice and/or promote louis de montfort and/or his consecration/form of devotion, and they are all controversial at best and lamentable at worst.  The CMRI clergy, the premier usurper sedevacantist group, are all doing the de montfort consecration.  The Plinio de oliviera TFP disciples are doing the de montfort consecration after the example of their founder.  + Clarence Kelly of mixed opinion and founder of the cspv is constantly referencing louis de montfort positively in his reflections/newsletters.  The official feeneyite groups are "slaves" doing the de montfort consecrations.  Even Bishop Faure, who pulled an about face immediately after being consecrated may be doing the de montfort consecration(his private seminary is the louis de montfort seminary).  Do you really think +Williamson would have consecrated him if he knew that shortly after he was going to decree into existence a new religious congregation contrary to his own personal recommendation?  Conversely, the sspx was "canonically erected, and uncanonically suppressed."  It is totally different.  If you think that my posts are incoherent, read the thoroughly gnostic grimoire that survived the destruction of the french revolution solely because its adherents say it was fortunately hiding "in a box" only after to be discovered.  Or don't, because, on your own, you will likely be defeated by it. "By their fruits you shall know them."

What is wrong with consecrating ourselves as a slave to Jesus through Mary?

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".  There are no slaves in heaven.  Just as King Herod and Pharoah are not babysitters, the Virgin Mary, queen of heaven, ancíllae suae, is not a slave owner.  God doesn't put to death slaves like a horse.  God defeats death.  Like I have said, the Virgin Mary did not die. 

Pharoah had to be drowned in the sea, and Herod had to die before Christ would return to their land.  We are seemingly talking about an unforgivable sin here.

There might even be something satanic about the phrase "put to death no differently than one would put to death a horse".  How and why does the world put a horse down?  The world does it fast(shooting your horse if it has a broken ankle), and proactively(it is an old horse).  That means, applied to humans, suffering is not only not salvific, but it is so bad that we have to put a prospective sufferer down so that they don't ever experience suffering.  Such is the charism of those doing the de montfort consecration.  Contrast that with Christ who gave us the beatitudes.  "Blessed are they" said our Lord. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 04:46:45 AM by Philip G. »
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2021, 07:55:28 AM »
"By their fruits you will know them".  So long as Louis de Montfort is the champion of the mary mediatrix, co-redemptrix, and the 5th marian dogma movement, the initiative will not enjoy passivity.  Teaching, as de montfort does, that Mary is to be likened to an earthly queen who has a duty as a result of her great dignity to own slaves, and in the fullest sense of the word slave; and can put them to death as her pleasure sees fit, no differently than I quote "one might put to death a horse" has no place in the traditional understanding of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God.  And, that is not all you will find in his works.  Read his works at your own risk. 

You can go down the list of today's trad clergy who practice and/or promote louis de montfort and/or his consecration/form of devotion, and they are all controversial at best and lamentable at worst.  The CMRI clergy, the premier usurper sedevacantist group, are all doing the de montfort consecration.  The Plinio de oliviera TFP disciples are doing the de montfort consecration after the example of their founder.  + Clarence Kelly of mixed opinion and founder of the cspv is constantly referencing louis de montfort positively in his reflections/newsletters.  The official feeneyite groups are "slaves" doing the de montfort consecrations.  Even Bishop Faure, who pulled an about face immediately after being consecrated may be doing the de montfort consecration(his private seminary is the louis de montfort seminary).  Do you really think +Williamson would have consecrated him if he knew that shortly after he was going to decree into existence a new religious congregation contrary to his own personal recommendation?  Conversely, the sspx was "canonically erected, and uncanonically suppressed."  It is totally different.  If you think that my posts are incoherent, read the thoroughly gnostic grimoire that survived the destruction of the french revolution solely because its adherents say it was fortunately hiding "in a box" only after to be discovered.  Or don't, because, on your own, you will likely be defeated by it. "By their fruits you shall know them."

What is wrong with consecrating ourselves as a slave to Jesus through Mary?

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".  There are no slaves in heaven.  Just as King Herod and Pharoah are not babysitters, the Virgin Mary, queen of heaven, ancíllae suae, is not a slave owner.  God doesn't put to death slaves like a horse.  God defeats death.  Like I have said, the Virgin Mary did not die. 

Pharoah had to be drowned in the sea, and Herod had to die before Christ would return to their land.  We are seemingly talking about an unforgivable sin here.

There might even be something satanic about the phrase "put to death no differently than one would put to death a horse".  How and why does the world put a horse down?  The world does it fast(shooting your horse if it has a broken ankle), and proactively(it is an old horse).  That means, applied to humans, suffering is not only not salvific, but it is so bad that we have to put a prospective sufferer down so that they don't ever experience suffering.  Such is the charism of those doing the de montfort consecration.  Contrast that with Christ who gave us the beatitudes.  "Blessed are they" said our Lord.

I think you are understanding things wrong.  In fact I'm positive you are.

Where exactly is the phrase "put to death no differently than one would put to death a horse" in Louis de Montfort's writings?
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
The following users thanked this post: Jayne, Melkor

Offline Elizabeth.2

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Re: Francis denies Our Lady is Co-Redemptrix
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2021, 08:19:20 AM »


What is wrong with consecrating ourselves as a slave to Jesus through Mary?
Not one thing is wrong with such a consecration.
 
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