Author Topic: How This Crisis Ends  (Read 1227 times)

Offline Chris Jackson

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How This Crisis Ends
« on: April 04, 2021, 07:04:21 PM »
Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends

How This Crisis Ends

Any knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering. If one adds up the decline in numbers of baptisms, marriages, and vocations, coupled with the silent apostasy of millions of lapsed and “former” Catholics since the end of Vatican II, the figures would be shocking. Many words have been written about the causes of the crisis and volumes published documenting every last detail of the destruction it has caused. However, to my knowledge, little has been written attempting to explain how the crisis might one day successfully be resolved.

As with most Church crises in the past such as the Arian Crisis and the Great Western Schism, it was hard for Catholics living in those times to envision a way out, and indeed many died not knowing what eventual resolution might take place. History has, of course, shown us how these crises were resolved, but the crisis we face now, like all true crises, is unique and has no exact precedent. Thus, the future is uncertain. We may be tempted, as Catholics in the past no doubt were, to think that our crisis may become permanent, to think extreme and theologically dangerous measures are needed to resolve it, or to, God forbid, throw up our hands in frustration believing the Church has somehow failed.

In this article, I will first show why various proposed solutions to the crisis are deficient or unworkable and then I will attempt to propose what a successful resolution might eventually look like.

Read the rest here.
 
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Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2021, 07:41:18 PM »
I don't know how the crisis ends, but the "Sedevacantist Solutions" section of your article is a mess, I'm sorry to say.

Some comments:

Quote
As a general rule, I’ve found sedevacantist leaders and public figures do not spend much time proposing solutions to the crisis.
Why is it our job to propose solutions?

Quote
They, are instead, more focused on converting Catholics to the sedevacantist position, which is, essentially, that all Vatican II popes have been invalid and, therefore, not “true popes.”
Some do this, and some don't.  Really, it's a mixed bag.

Quote
Sedevacantist apologists typically deflect the issue of resolving the crisis by arguing that any solutions outside sedevacantism necessarily require the admission of a defected Church, which, of course, is impossible.
I don't see why sedevacantism implies that the Church has defected, even though this is often asserted online.  In my opinion though, the non-sedevacantist position does entail a defected Church, because it requires that one think the Church cannot be trusted to give us the correct religion.

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I will address this argument later. However, the question that these sedevacantist leaders must ask themselves is as follows. Let’s assume a hypothetical situation where sedevacantist apologists are wildly successful and convert 90% of Catholics to their position, what then?

Sedevacantists who attempt to explain the crisis by arguing that every pope and bishop since Vatican II lost their office for heresy are in a quandary.
This is not my position.  I do not believe every see in the world is vacant.

Quote
This position leaves no way to elect a new pope since there would no longer be any College of Cardinals.
I'm not persuaded that the College of Cardinals is in fact extinct.  But even if it is, it's not as if the Church would be unable to elect a pope.  Go see what Bellarmine says on a papal election without cardinals.

Quote
In fact, this is the very reason why the sedevacantists do not currently elect a new pope themselves. They rightly admit that they have no such authority or designation to do so. So where does this leave the 90% of Catholics who just became convinced of sedevacantism in our hypothetical? It basically leaves them at a dead end.
Seemingly a dead end, perhaps.  But so what?  It's not as if calling Francis the Vicar of Christ somehow makes things any better.  On the contrary, that would make everything immeasurably worse.

The fact is, I don't have to solve every mysterious aspect of this crisis to be comfortable in my judgment that Francis isn't the pope.

Have a blessed Easter!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 07:43:14 PM by Vincentus Ioannes »
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2021, 09:42:33 PM »
C.J. Stated:
Quote
Any knowledgeable Catholic recognizes that the Catholic Church is currently in a crisis, the effects of which have been staggering
Really? 99.99% of Catholics deny that there is a "crisis"; how do you determine who is a "knowlegeable Catholic" from one that is not? The "Pope"; the Cardinals; the Bishops; the doctors of theology; heads of universities etc. etc etc. All claim (with honorable exception) that everything in the Church is fine.
Then we have your take on Ecclesiology:
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All of this, without requiring His faithful to believe in any outlandish sedevacantist theory or to believe in the erroneous non-infallible contradictory claptrap that has been emanating from the cracks of St. Peters since the crisis began. For until the crisis is finally resolved through infallible declarations we have an obligation to be obedient to the constant teachings of the popes and Tradition, which cannot be lead astray, over the non-infallible authentic magisterium of a later pope who is contradicting it. This was true in the time of Pope John XXII and it is still true today.ix
So the See of Peter and the Bishops united with it can issue: "Contradictory claptrap'' and can lead the Catholic faithful "astray" even in their "non-infallible authentic magisterium";
I would be interested in what your source is for the above information?
Here for example is Pius IX in "Qui Nuper" on the obligation of Catholics to submit to the "non-infallible" claptrap of the Magisterium:
Quote
(Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Qui Nuper, n. 3)
In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the [First] Vatican Council declared are to be believed “with Catholic and divine faith.” But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the Apostolic See.
Or in "Quanta Cura"
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Quanta Cura, Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, 1864
“Nor can we pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that “without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to concern the Church’s general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogma of faith and morals.” But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church.”
As Leo XIII explained in refuting the Americanist errors, the "See of Peter ever remains free from error"
Quote
In fact, only a miracle of that divine power could preserve the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, from blemish in the holiness of Her doctrine, law, and end in the midst of the flood of corruption and lapses of her members. Her doctrine, law and end have produced an abundant harvest. The faith and holiness of her children have brought forth the most salutary fruits. Here is another proof of her divine life: in spite of a great number of pernicious opinions and great variety of errors (as well as the vast army of rebels) the Church remains immutable and constant, “as the pillar and foundation of truth”, in professing one identical doctrine, in receiving the same Sacraments, in her divine constitution, government, and morality….
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline james03

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2021, 11:21:00 PM »
The solution is relatively easy, but politically impossible.  Basically it is to abandon the lie and tell the truth.  The lie is that the Traditional Latin Rite is the "extraordinary" form of the Latin Rite.  This is a lie.

What we have is 2 different rites.  The Traditional Latin Rite and the Common Rite or Vulgar Rite.  The solution is easy, declare the 2 Rites as separate, and appoint bishops and a patriarch for the Traditional Latin Rite.  Identical to the set up that Eastern Rites have.  After that, the Vulgar Rite will die out and the Traditional Latin Rite will become the majority Rite.  Eventually we elect a Pope and the reforms can take place.

This is politically impossible because the current hierarchy has a burning hatred of the Catholic Faith and of Jesus Christ, so they would never agree to allowing a vibrant Traditional Latin Rite to take root.

So we will continue as the woman who fled into the wilderness.

Being intellectually honest, I hold that Bergoglio is not the Pope which makes me a sede, so it is more complex than this.  But I'm going with the assumption of Francis being our Pope.
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Offline james03

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2021, 11:36:03 PM »
Answering the question straight up:

The crisis ends after 1/3 of the population is killed in the war that started in the Euphrates region and anti-christ is overthrown.  That will be the end of the crisis.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline Philip G.

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2021, 12:26:18 AM »
The solution is relatively easy, but politically impossible.  Basically it is to abandon the lie and tell the truth.  The lie is that the Traditional Latin Rite is the "extraordinary" form of the Latin Rite.  This is a lie.

What we have is 2 different rites.  The Traditional Latin Rite and the Common Rite or Vulgar Rite.  The solution is easy, declare the 2 Rites as separate, and appoint bishops and a patriarch for the Traditional Latin Rite.  Identical to the set up that Eastern Rites have.  After that, the Vulgar Rite will die out and the Traditional Latin Rite will become the majority Rite.  Eventually we elect a Pope and the reforms can take place.

This is politically impossible because the current hierarchy has a burning hatred of the Catholic Faith and of Jesus Christ, so they would never agree to allowing a vibrant Traditional Latin Rite to take root.

So we will continue as the woman who fled into the wilderness.

Being intellectually honest, I hold that Bergoglio is not the Pope which makes me a sede, so it is more complex than this.  But I'm going with the assumption of Francis being our Pope.

We have more than bi ritual chaos.  Just as the modernists are sucking the TLM movement dry with their wickedness, the schimatics/russia is sucking our eastern uniate brethren dry.  And, we are just as far from them as we are from our own problems.  The only liturgical solution to this crisis is one rite with many languages.  Right now we have many rites, with many languages.  Pre vatican 2 we essentially had one rite one language.  None of those prevented this collapse.  The worst of all the scenarios is one language, many rites.  That is the globalist's wet dream.  The only solution is its polar opposite, which is one rite, many languages. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 12:50:57 AM by Philip G. »
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Offline james03

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2021, 12:36:54 AM »
 
Quote
Just as the modernists are sucking the TLM movement dry with their wickedness,
  Not seeing it.  We are entering the second growth wave.  The problem is the Boomers.  The Trad movement was a "Silent Generation" / "Gen X" phenomenon.  Very few boomers, and very few boomer kids.  The kids of Gen X are getting to marrying age and I'm seeing a ton of weddings and baptisms, which will only increase over the next 15 years.  The boomers are stuck in the vulgar rite, and their kids aren't Catholic.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline clau clau

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2021, 12:43:08 AM »
Rite now we have many rites

 :rofl:

What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?

"Serves you rite!"
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2021, 12:55:39 AM »
Rite now we have many rites

 :rofl:

What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?

"Serves you rite!"

It is called a typo.  Have you never been to the novus ordo?  It is different with every priest.  The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite.  But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2021, 01:17:11 AM »
The Conclusion of the OP article.

Quote
Conclusion

In the final analysis, a future pope could work to implement these newly defined dogmas as Trent did, by mandating disciplines, liturgical and otherwise, to reinforce the opposite of the neo-modernist errors. A future pope could also wreak havoc on the 5th column of liberal priests, bishops, and religious who wear the garb of the Church while at the same time working for Her destruction. In fact, the very first thing a future Catholic pope should do is to gut the College of Cardinals. At the very first moment of his election, this future pope should immediately remove every single cardinal so much as suspected of heterodoxy and replace them with truly Catholic cardinals who are loyal to tradition. This would ensure that the left would be locked out of the papacy, God willing, for a very long time, if not hopefully forever.

When the glorious day comes where a future pope infallibly condemns all of the widespread errors that plague us in our present time, we can imagine it might sound something like the glorious words of Pope Leo X in Exsurge Domine, where he first condemned the errors of Martin Luther. May Pope Leo’s plea to Heaven and the Saints that began this holy document 500 years ago become our fervent prayer today:

Arise, O Lord, and judge your own cause. Remember your reproaches to those who are filled with foolishness all through the day. Listen to our prayers, for foxes have arisen seeking to destroy the vineyard whose winepress you alone have trod. When you were about to ascend to your Father, you committed the care, rule, and administration of the vineyard, an image of the triumphant church, to Peter, as the head and your vicar and his successors. The wild boar from the forest seeks to destroy it and every wild beast feeds upon it.

Rise, Peter, and fulfill this pastoral office divinely entrusted to you as mentioned above. Give heed to the cause of the holy Roman Church, mother of all churches and teacher of the faith, whom you by the order of God, have consecrated by your blood. Against the Roman Church, you warned, lying teachers are rising, introducing ruinous sects, and drawing upon themselves speedy doom. Their tongues are fire, a restless evil, full of deadly poison. They have bitter zeal, contention in their hearts, and boast and lie against the truth.

We beseech you also, Paul, to arise. It was you that enlightened and illuminated the Church by your doctrine and by a martyrdom like Peter’s. For now a new Porphyry rises who, as the old once wrongfully assailed the holy apostles, now assails the holy pontiffs, our predecessors.

Rebuking them, in violation of your teaching, instead of imploring them, he is not ashamed to assail them, to tear at them, and when he despairs of his cause, to stoop to insults. He is like the heretics “whose last defense,” as Jerome says, “is to start spewing out a serpent’s venom with their tongue when they see that their causes are about to be condemned, and spring to insults when they see they are vanquished.” For although you have said that there must be heresies to test the faithful, still they must be destroyed at their very birth by your intercession and help, so they do not grow or wax strong like your wolves. Finally, let the whole church of the saints and the rest of the universal church arise. Some, putting aside her true interpretation of Sacred Scripture, are blinded in mind by the father of lies. Wise in their own eyes, according to the ancient practice of heretics, they interpret these same Scriptures otherwise than the Holy Spirit demands, inspired only by their own sense of ambition, and for the sake of popular acclaim, as the Apostle declares. In fact, they twist and adulterate the Scriptures. As a result, according to Jerome, “It is no longer the Gospel of Christ, but a man’s, or what is worse, the devil’s.”

Let all this holy Church of God, I say, arise, and with the blessed apostles intercede with almighty God to purge the errors of His sheep, to banish all heresies from the lands of the faithful, and be pleased to maintain the peace and unity of His holy Church.x

I'm afraid to get the future Catholic pope that the first paragraph above is calling for, to gut the College of Cardinals, we are literally going to have to call down Sts. Peter and Paul, as Pope Leo X mentioned in Exsurge Domine.  We will never get the future Catholic pope to gut the College of Cardinals with the current College of Cardinals that we have.  The deck is stacked.  So how does this crisis end?  Nothing will end it other than Divine Intervention. 
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Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2021, 07:41:37 AM »
Rite now we have many rites

 :rofl:

What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?

"Serves you rite!"

It is called a typo.  Have you never been to the novus ordo?  It is different with every priest.  The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite.  But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.

I regard the Novus Ordo as the worship of a false religion, so I do not attend it.

If there’s a wedding or funeral of a loved one, I would apply the relevant moral theology principles.  But it’s not as if I’m going to turn up at the local Novus parish on a normal Sunday.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 08:24:37 AM by Vincentus Ioannes »
 
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Offline clau clau

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2021, 08:34:59 AM »
Rite now we have many rites

 :rofl:

What did the the traditionalist say to the modernist who lost his lost his faith?

"Serves you rite!"

It is called a typo.  Have you never been to the novus ordo?  It is different with every priest.  The novus ordo options express the opposite of a rite.  But, Trads love to talk about the novus ordo like they are experts, when they cannot even muster up the courage to enter the building and remain there for the duration of.

I know it was a typo. I just found it amusing. It wasn't a criticism.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 10:00:39 AM by clau clau »
Would you like to shake hands with Pope 1 or Pope 2 -
 me (inspired by Dr Seuss) see: https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/Thing_One_and_Thing_Two

But when he's dumb and no more here,
Nineteen hundred years or near,
Clau-Clau-Claudius shall speak clear.
 
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Offline Elizabeth.2

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2021, 01:10:20 PM »
Thanks for posting your Remnant piece, Chris. 
I think we are probably entering the time of Antichrist and that our Hope is with Our Lady Queen of Angels and the Lord of Armies.
 
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Offline Jayne

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2021, 10:05:00 AM »
I'm afraid to get the future Catholic pope that the first paragraph above is calling for, to gut the College of Cardinals, we are literally going to have to call down Sts. Peter and Paul, as Pope Leo X mentioned in Exsurge Domine.  We will never get the future Catholic pope to gut the College of Cardinals with the current College of Cardinals that we have.  The deck is stacked.  So how does this crisis end?  Nothing will end it other than Divine Intervention.

I agree that we can expect the College of Cardinals to elect "one of their own" and due to the nature of papal appointments we would expect this to be a liberal.  But sometimes men change after becoming pope.  Conversion is always a possibility.  Or sometimes, a man who has avoided publicly taking sides gets elected (as a compromise) and finally reveals his true thoughts. 

In a sense, these scenarios could be seen as Divine Intervention, so I suppose I agree with you on that too.  This article really impressed on me the importance of praying for the pope and the papacy.  I think Chris Jackson made a good case that proper exercise of papal authority is a realistic path to solving the Crisis.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: How This Crisis Ends
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2021, 11:22:18 AM »
Curious to see your thoughts on how the current Church crisis will end.

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/5340-how-this-crisis-ends

Thanks for posting this.  I don't regularly read the Remnant so I might have missed it otherwise.  Since I remembered how helpful I found your article (years ago) on the validity of SSPX Confessions, I made a point to read your article at the link.  I am very glad I did.  It was perfect for Easter Week because the Resurrection is the foundation of hope.  Sometimes  various aspects of this Crisis tempt me to despair for the future of the Church.  It eased my heart to see how you envisioned a way forward.  I am grateful.

I suppose I ought to join your fan club now.  :cheeseheadbeer:

Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 
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