Author Topic: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard  (Read 1695 times)

Offline Gerard

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2021, 04:42:45 PM »
I believe that Biden's attempt to marry two men and his public support for gender transitioning are further reasons to disqualify him for Communion. He's a formal heretic.


He's at best a "manifest" heretic, not a formal one.  A "formal" heretic is somebody who has been excommunicated "formally" by the hierarchy of the Church and declared as such. 
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2021, 05:21:25 PM »
I believe that Biden's attempt to marry two men and his public support for gender transitioning are further reasons to disqualify him for Communion. He's a formal heretic.


He's at best a "manifest" heretic, not a formal one.  A "formal" heretic is somebody who has been excommunicated "formally" by the hierarchy of the Church and declared as such.
Gerard,
this is wrong; the difference between a "material" heretic and a "formal" one has to do with "pertinacity" i.e. "willful and malicious".
A heretic is one who denies a Catholic doctrine; if this denial is through ignorance or inadvertence; then the person is "materialy'' a heretic; that is he is denying the doctrine but not innocently.
If he denies it while at the same time realizing it is the teaching of the Church, he is considered a "formal'' heretic.
Pius XII in "Mistici Corporis" described those who are separated from the Church by lawful authorities and those who separate themselves through heresy or schism.
M.C.
Quote
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.....#23.....[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy..
Here is an article on the subject from John Cardinal De Lugo https://romeward.com/articles/239752519/cardinal-de-lugo-on-heresy
another from a sede writter Mr. J. Daly: http://strobertbellarmine.net/pertinacity.html
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"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2021, 06:05:04 PM »
...and here is some of what the old Catholic Encyclopedia has to
say on formal heresy:

Quote
The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 06:14:06 PM by Non Nobis »
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2021, 01:25:54 AM »

Gerard,
this is wrong; the difference between a "material" heretic and a "formal" one has to do with "pertinacity" i.e. "willful and malicious".
A heretic is one who denies a Catholic doctrine; if this denial is through ignorance or inadvertence; then the person is "materialy'' a heretic; that is he is denying the doctrine but not innocently.

I always appreciate your rebuttals Michael.  Hope you had a fruitful Easter. 

I'm going to make a counterargument here.  The word "heresy" means "to make a choice." 

"Material" heresy is a person who unknowingly holds to an error that is already declared by the Church to be heretical.  If someone is taught that the Eucharist is confected by the congregation under the idea of "where two or more of you are gathered in my name, I am there." instead of the words of consecration and the power of the Orders at work in the priest. 
They are technically anathematized by Trent, but if they don't know Trent and honestly believe that Sister Modernist was giving her actual Catholic doctrine, that's "material" heresy. 


"Formal"heresy is when a person has been corrected by a Church authority and pertinaciously held to it after canonical warnings.  A "formality" then occurs in which a canonical court declares the pertinacity of the person and they have made their "choice" and the person is a "heretic" formally. 

Quote
If he denies it while at the same time realizing it is the teaching of the Church, he is considered a "formal'' heretic.

Again, that would be a "manifest" heretic.  The person has effectively demonstrated everything that a heretic would demonstrate and an ecclesiastical court would then "formalize" the manifest heresy into "formal" heresy. 


Quote
Pius XII in "Mistici Corporis" described those who are separated from the Church by lawful authorities and those who separate themselves through heresy or schism.
M.C.
Quote
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.....#23.....[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy..
Here is an article on the subject from John Cardinal De Lugo https://romeward.com/articles/239752519/cardinal-de-lugo-on-heresy
another from a sede writter Mr. J. Daly: http://strobertbellarmine.net/pertinacity.html

I think your reading ignores the role of the ecclesiastical authorities in formalizing heresy as an excommunicable offense and not a latea sententiae excommunication. 

We are encountering this problem nowadays with people declaring other people heretics on their own authority when those very people hurling accusations may be the ones in error.  We had that thread recently where Ratzinger was a heretic because he didn't state something, or didn't state something in the way the poster wanted him to have said it.  Either way, no evidence was presented the demonstrated Ratzinger was wrong.  And the argument was that Ratzinger had stated that the Old Testament texts were obscure and that non-Christians reading it aren't going necessarily to see the connections to Jesus without the Church, the Holy Ghost or the New Testament. 

 
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2021, 01:30:47 AM »
...and here is some of what the old Catholic Encyclopedia has to
say on formal heresy:

Quote

Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions.

I think the implication in the section I emphasized in red is that an ecclesiastical court be a part of the equation.  It  must show pertinacity, which is the authority of the Church confronting the person with the option to make their "choice" and be declared a heretic,  or accept the correction of the Church.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2021, 01:52:16 AM »
This is the way, I explain it, while evangelizing. Some may disagree with my figures, but they are rough.

If you are without Baptism and Christ, your chances of salvation are at best 10%. Now, for myself, I don't believe anyone will be saved without Baptism, and without Christ, but that God will bring all good-willed non-Christians to salvation in Christ, and in Baptism. But still I say it like this because God can always work a miracle for them, and bring it about unknown to us, but the chances of that are very less. So I say your chances of salvation are greatly increased if you accept Holy Baptism and believe in Christ.

If you have Baptism and Christ, your chances of salvation imo are at least 90%. If this was not so, people will ask us, why even bother believing in Christ and being baptized? If even after Baptism, which often comes with persecution, being disowned by family etc in India, both for former Hindus and for former Muslims, my chances of salvation are still supposedly 0.00001%, why even bother with it at all? I could see them saying, in such a case, they'll take their chances for salvation as a Hindu or a Muslim or an Atheist.

Just like Lauermar said earlier. Because it greatly de-motivates even otherwise good Catholics and Christians who are sincerely striving toward salvation, by good works, prayers, sacrifices and growing in the Love of God. So this is what I believe.

Now, if in addition to receiving Holy Baptism, you enter the Catholic Church, are filled with the Holy Ghost through the Sacrament of Confirmation, make a good Confession, and then have the Grace of Holy Communion, your chances go up to 99%.

Again, just my opinion, but a plausible one imo, and one that helps encourage souls in Christ, and evangelize them to Christ. Christ must, at the least, increase one's chances of salvation, both by faith in Him, and through His Sacraments, for people to come to Him.

Now, if you commit a mortal sin, your chances of salvation, even after being restored by Confession (before which it went down to 0), decrease by a net of 5% imo. So it goes to 94% if you committed one, 89% if you commited two, 84% if 3 and so on.

And if you go on committing mortal sin, and keep increasing their number day by day, then it goes down to 0 or near zero.

Now, if you receive the 9 Holy Communions in your first year as a Christian itself, then your salvation, by virtue of Christ's Promises, goes up to nearly 100%. Ideally, this should be done without committing any mortal sin, and of course after Confession.

The best and safest way to Heaven is to strive to preserve Baptismal Innocence without even a single mortal sin. In that case, from 99%, it will increase to 99.1% after One Communion, 99.2% after Two Communions, and so on upto nearly 100% after 9.

One should believe the Lord, and Our Lady, when they Promise Final Perseverance to us Catholics, if we will do simple things for Them. That's the best way to cure hateful scruples which could discourage and de-motivate us terribly. Our Lady has promised it for just 5.

I am not encouraging presumption either. After doing it once for oneself, one should continue it lifelong for others. For e.g. if one does the 5 Communions to the Immaculate Heart, one will be saved. If one does it for 5 years, 12 times, one can offer it for 12 friends.

But the best of all would be to do it for 50 years, i.e. throughout one's life, and thus would be able to save 120 of your friends! And even more, if you live longer than that! And all that, just by going for Confession, Communion, Mass and praying the Rosary!

And since St. Dominic said, if you save one other soul, you yourself, by God's Grace, will be saved, you have additional and further guarantees of salvation, from the Promises of Our Lord and His Saints. The Saints also say each soul is a jewel added to your Crown.

This is what we should focus on doing: praying for, working for, and striving to sanctify and save souls, and thus we will save our own also. For a similar reason, we should always pray for all the departed and dying souls as well. When we come to die, all those prayers will be blessed and rewarded. God will give us back all the graces we have co-operated in dispensing toward others. We will be blessed!

God Bless.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 02:05:22 AM by Xavier »
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2021, 07:08:09 PM »
Gerard,
thanks for the kind words and Easter wishes and the same to you.
re. "Material heresy and the words of consecration"; agreed.
re. "Formal heresy and canonical warnings"; this is where we diverge; while it is correct to say that a person who has been issued canonical warnings and does not retract their errors is a "formal heretic", canonical warnings are not always necessary or required, per Cardinal De Lugo (article I linked to).
re. "Manifest heresy"; agreed.
M.C.  Quote:
Quote
unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed..
You highlighted the "or been excluded etc." Which I am not disputing; but you ignored the "...as to seperate themselves", part.
re. People declaring others as heretics. True; there is a lot of that going on, however it doesn't mean that there are people who don't leave the Church on their own, without a formal declaration from the authorities having been pronounced. For example a Catholic that would join the Jehova Winessess and have himself publicly "re-baptized", per that sect's usual procedure. That person would not be considered a Catholic, even before any official declaration from the Church.
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"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2021, 01:12:26 PM »
Xavier,
I think your putting percentages on chances of salvation/perdition is the wrong approach; first, because Our Lord has not revealed to us what the percentages are;second because your numbers may be misleading even totally mistaken. I believe the better approach is to do what the Church has always done: to emphasize God's universal salvific will while at the same time preaching the necessity of membership in the Catholic Church in order to be saved. Which is what for example what St. Alphonsus did.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Santantonio

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2021, 06:05:25 PM »
 
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