Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard

[MaximGun]

It is possible that majority of Christians will be saved, yet God allowed sermons like St Leonard's to be preached in order to make us take our salvation seriously and not fall into presumption. A temporary motivation-booster, so to speak, rather than a doctrine.

God who cannot deceive or be deceived?

Motivating people with lies?

I think not.

[Xavier]

The future is not necessarily set in stone in the way it is sometimes conceived to be. I don't know if people have watched the series "Heroes" here, but let me give an analogy from that. When in the series, they see a vision that new york city was going to be destroyed, they come back and warn people about it. It would have been destroyed if nothing had changed. But things were changed, and so consequently it wasn't destroyed. That's an example of how the future changes when the present changes. For someone who wants a Biblical example, I will give the example of the Prophet Jonah. Notice that at first, he announced to the city that it was going to be destroyed i.e. that it was on the path of destruction. But the people repented and did fasting and penance for their sins. And so they were saved, and the future changed, and they were not destroyed then. How did the future change? They changed it by changing the present.

So for e.g. to come back to our sermon, the Saint could very well have had a supernatural intuition, say, that 90% of those in that audience present there - IF THEY REMAINED AS THEY WERE - would be lost. That is, they were in mortal sin and on the path to hell. Thus his prophetic warnings were just and necessary. And yet it doesn't follow from that that necessarily 90% of those were finally lost. Why? Say 80% of them heeded his warnings and changed their lives. Then the hypothetical future would have changed, and a different future would have been realized. In that actual future, because of repentance and change of life, the 80% who changed+the 10% who were already on the path of salvation=90% in all would have been saved. We always have the power, with the aid of God's Grace, to change the future from what it otherwise would have been. We are not puppets on a string in a Calvinist puppet-show.

This would explain the Saint's ending well. And it also fits with that example of that Saint he gave, who himself feared being lost, and then did great penance for 40 years, and ended up being saved and a Saint. In one place, St. Alphonsus mentions St. Theresa - a Great Saint who never committed a single mortal sin in her whole life - see in a vision the hypothetical place prepared in hell for her, i.e. the place where she would have gone if, despising the Lord and refusing her vocation, she fell into that grave sin and remained obstinate in final impenitence until the end. But of course we know it didn't turn out that way. She completely corresponded to the Lord's Graces, and remained faithful to Him all her life, never committing a single mortal sin, and becoming one of the Great Saints of the Church.

So one should (edit:) NOT despair or worry too much. One should have a salutary fear of God, a hatred of sin, a desire to be holy, a love for righteousness, great trust in God, abiding faith and a deep hope in Him. Faith in God, hope in God and love of God are great virtues we should seek to grow in every day of our lives. We exercise our hope by firmly hoping, from God's Goodness, to receive Final Perseverance in His Grace.

God Bless.

[Miriam_M]

I think we should as Philippians 2 urges us 'work out....salvation with fear and trembling.'

Yes, but those of us who know we are of the melancholic temperament are told by traditionalist priests not to dwell on fear because discouragement is our natural impulse and can be treacherous to our salvation.

This is, again, why working with a director is so very helpful.  For example, my previous one forbade me to read Garrigou La-Grange, whom I like very much, because my director wanted me to stay away from the concept of predestination completely. 

We have to remember that hope is a theological virtue for a reason, and we are to cultivate hope, while avoiding presumption and complacency. Hope, like mercy, is not the free pass that the modernist hierarchy makes it out to be. Hope has its roots in humility -- the acknowledgement that one is a grave sinner but the equal confidence that God's mercy is certain to respond to true compunction. God wants us to be certain of that, which is why the Church has traditionally enjoined us to pray for the gift of hope, daily.

I am no fan of +Barron.  He represents, i.m.o., the treachery of presumption and the temptation to complacency.

[Xavier]

From: https://www.piercedhearts.org/treasures/devotions/to_saints/claude_colombiere.htm

"ACT OF HOPE AND CONFIDENCE IN GOD
St. Claude de la Colombiere

My God, I believe most firmly that You watch over all who hope in You,
and that we can want for nothing when we rely upon You in all things.
Therefore I am resolved for the future...to cast all my cares upon You...

People may deprive me of worldly goods and status.
Sickness may take from me my strength and the means of serving You.
I may even jeopardize our relationship by sin, but my trust shall never leave me.
I will preserve it to the last moment of my life, and the powers of hell shall seek in vain
to grab it from me.

Let others seek happiness in their wealth and in their talents. Let them trust in the purity of their lives, the severity of their mortifications, in the number of their good works, the enthusiasm of their prayers,
as for me, my Rock and my Refuge, my confidence in you fills me with hope. For You, my Divine Protector, alone have settled me in hope.

"This confidence can never be vain. No one, who has hoped in God, has ever been confounded."

I am assured, therefore, of my eternal happiness, for I firmly hope in it and all my hope is in You. "In You, O loving God, have I hoped: let me never be confounded."

I know too well that I am weak and changeable. I know the power of temptation against the strongest virtue.
I have seen stars fall and foundations of my world crack; these things do not alarm me. While I hope in You, I am sheltered from all misfortune, and I am sure that my trust shall endure, for I rely upon You to sustain this unfailing hope.

Finally, I know that my confidence cannot exceed Your generosity, and that I shall never receive less
than I have hoped for from You. Therefore I hope that You will sustain me against my evil inclinations,
that You will protect me against the deceitful attacks of the evil one, and that You will cause my weakness
to triumph over every hostile force. I hope that You will never cease to love me and that I shall love You unceasingly.

"In You, O loving God, have I hoped: let me never be confounded."

[Xavier]

Here is Holy Scripture on the Number of the Elect: A Great and Vast Multitude that No Man can Number. It is not 1% or anything like that.

Apoc 7:[9] After this I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands: [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.

[Miriam_M]

The weird thing is, I have tremendous hope in God for my physical well-being. I trust that He is in charge of my life and death and that if He wants me alive, I will stay alive -- and vice-versa. I trust in His Providence regarding the next direction of my life, etc.  But I think I have been listening to too many sermons that cast much more doubt over my spiritual destiny than anything in my earthly destiny.

God is not fickle or mutable, so there really is no logic in the confidence I hold out for my earthly destiny that I do not also extend to my heavenly destiny.  It is my temperament, easily tempted to negativity -- which is what Satan loves to manipulate, that leads me to doubt what I should not.

[Xavier]

Yes, Miriam. Since God loves us so much, His Providence cares more for our eternal happiness than for our temporal happiness - for which latter itself, we often know from experience, that His Sacred Heart cares so much for us. We should often think of the Eternal Reward promised to us and which we will infallibly obtain if but we remain in the State of Grace. Scripture speaks of it a Glorious Crown, a Crown of Life and Righteousness. That Crown that God has promised to each of us in His Love, to be given to us upon our entrance into Paradise. Jesus and Mary have their own Crowns (e.g. Rev 12:1), St. Paul, St. Peter and each of the Saints received theirs, and we will too one day.

How happy will we be forever in eternity! The thought should lead us to love God ever more and more, Who so much desires our happiness.

[Arvinger]

It is possible that majority of Christians will be saved, yet God allowed sermons like St Leonard's to be preached in order to make us take our salvation seriously and not fall into presumption. A temporary motivation-booster, so to speak, rather than a doctrine.

God who cannot deceive or be deceived?

Motivating people with lies?

I think not.

Not lies, because it was not God who preached that sermon, but St Leonard who was certainly not lying, but might have been overzealous. In His permissive will God allows various incorrect opinions to be preached every day, there is no reason why He could not draw good from them.

[revival2029]

Here is a mere speculative position that our souls are actually bigger on the inside (yes dr who concept i know) and our souls are lands that can either be a paradise or a hell and if you go to heaven the divine life will flow in your soul and your soul will make up a part of the Kingdom and the larger Kingdom of Heaven is the Glorified Body of Christ while we currently are in the Mystical Body of Christ.  On the other hand if you go to Hell demonic venom will flow through your soul.

Predestination may have 2 parts, Mary was predestined to be Queen but St Dismas was recruited by grace, God may have set a minimum amount of saved to replace the fallen angels but left room for additional spaces, I think it solves the predestination problem but at the same time could be a way to err on the side of caution so people stay motivated.

Jesus said if there were not many places he would have told us

John 14:2 In my Father's house there are many places to live in; otherwise I would have told you. I am going now to prepare a place for you

Why say "otherwise...", had to be to reiterate there is plenty of room because maybe people thought it was just a select group that the Father chose and gave to him.

When all the souls were viewed before time God may have said, ok these are the cream of the crop, they are yours Jesus, and then there is this whole group kinda of on the edge.

But if the Kingdom of Heaven is a wedding banquet as its referred to all over the Gospels and Revelation, the bride, the Mystical Body of Christ, and the parts that make up that Mystical Body must be willing participants and have a soul that is worthy to even be there, which is why confession and purgatory are so crucial, so go ahead and ask some random person if they are ready and willing to go to a wedding banquet with God the Father and that they will be a participant in the marriage as a part that makes up the Body of Christ, how many would be yes I am ready?

[Miriam_M]

I'll post more about this later, but I'm not sure if everybody posting about the sermon listened to it carefully. I like it; he's very thorough. He discusses the topic from all angles and with scriptural and other approved references. I don't think it's an extremist view, but particularly because he keeps repeating the importance of proportion. He acknowledges that the Book of the Apocalypse refers to "a great multitude," and he agrees that there will be a great multitude in Heaven, but a greater multitude in Hell.

It is a sermon against Presumption, rather than a sermon promoting excessive servile fear, leading to despair.  Also, if you listened to the introduction, the speaker notes that St. Leonard was a very great missionary, and that this sermon was especially targeted to "the conversion of great sinners."

The Little Number is "in relation to the totality of men." 

Remember that the prototype Christian missionary, St. Paul, minced no words when addressing licentiousness among the communities he wrote to, condemning sacrilegious Communions and admonishing his audiences about their own "judgment," should they continue in habits of vice and fail to cultivate virtue, including but not limited to charity.

[Innocent Smith]

I think we should as Philippians 2 urges us 'work out....salvation with fear and trembling.'

Yes, but those of us who know we are of the melancholic temperament are told by traditionalist priests not to dwell on fear because discouragement is our natural impulse and can be treacherous to our salvation.

This is, again, why working with a director is so very helpful.  For example, my previous one forbade me to read Garrigou La-Grange, whom I like very much, because my director wanted me to stay away from the concept of predestination completely. 

We have to remember that hope is a theological virtue for a reason, and we are to cultivate hope, while avoiding presumption and complacency. Hope, like mercy, is not the free pass that the modernist hierarchy makes it out to be. Hope has its roots in humility -- the acknowledgement that one is a grave sinner but the equal confidence that God's mercy is certain to respond to true compunction. God wants us to be certain of that, which is why the Church has traditionally enjoined us to pray for the gift of hope, daily.

I am no fan of +Barron.  He represents, i.m.o., the treachery of presumption and the temptation to complacency.

I didn't read much here, or listen to any sermons, but I think I have a general gist of the idea.

There are certain charisms that come from certain orders that I find disturbing to think we must imitate them as lay people.  For instance, I have no need to live by St. Benedict's Rule.  Nor do I have to live like the meditations of Imitation of Christ. It's kind of sick to think we do.  Christ died for my sins.  I am not a co-redemptor.  All I have to do is follow the Commandments and not break them.

Worry about Church politics, behavior, politics, and everything else wrong with our institutions is not helpful to anyone trying to work out there salvation. 

[Jayne]

It is a sermon against Presumption, rather than a sermon promoting excessive servile fear, leading to despair.  Also, if you listened to the introduction, the speaker notes that St. Leonard was a very great missionary, and that this sermon was especially targeted to "the conversion of great sinners."

Well said.  I also thought it was noteworthy that St. Leonard was a great promoter of devotion to the Sacred Heart.  He must have balanced his preaching against presumption with preaching about the compassion and love of the Heart of Christ for humanity.

[Maximilian]

The weird thing is, I have tremendous hope in God for my physical well-being. I trust that He is in charge of my life and death and that if He wants me alive, I will stay alive -- and vice-versa. I trust in His Providence regarding the next direction of my life, etc.  But I think I have been listening to too many sermons that cast much more doubt over my spiritual destiny than anything in my earthly destiny.

God is not fickle or mutable, so there really is no logic in the confidence I hold out for my earthly destiny that I do not also extend to my heavenly destiny.  It is my temperament, easily tempted to negativity -- which is what Satan loves to manipulate, that leads me to doubt what I should not.

The way you feel is actually perfectly reasonable, and also predictable if one is pursuing a spiritual life.

Reliance on divine providence for one's natural life is a step which inevitably must come prior to reliance on divine providence for one's supernatural life. The first is easier and more obvious. The second is more difficult and more hidden.

So rather than calling it illogical or blaming sermons, what it really means is that you are beginning another, more challenging stage.

[Maximilian]

I'm not sure if everybody posting about the sermon listened to it carefully.

Clearly they did not. The full text is posted on this thread for anyone who lacks the time to listen to the audio.

I like it; he's very thorough. He discusses the topic from all angles and with scriptural and other approved references. I don't think it's an extremist view, but particularly because he keeps repeating the importance of proportion.

Yes, those with the temerity to attack a canonized saint who is famous for converting thousands of fallen-away Catholics reveal something about themselves.

[bigbadtrad]

Yes, those with the temerity to attack a canonized saint who is famous for converting thousands of fallen-away Catholics reveal something about themselves.

One can challenge ideas without daring to assert they are greater than the saint. We separate the idea from the person if we try to be logical. Maybe we're wrong, so use logic to argue the merit of your case. I'm open to it.

Pope Benedict XIV wrote:
"What is to be said of those private revelations which the Apostolic See has approved of, those of Blessed Hildegaard , of St. Bridget, and of St. Catherine of Siena? We have already said that those revelations, although approved of, ought not, and cannot, receive from us any assent of Catholic, but only of human faith, according to the rules of prudence, according to which the aforesaid revelations are probable, and piously to be believed."

If a pope can state there are mistakes in saints writings based on common Catholic sense we should have the right to think in good faith.

There are errors in revelations of saints. We can say that. What we can't say is how the saint is crazy, wicked, or impious or had some intent ascribed to their actions. That would be rash.

The sermon by St. Leonard, while in it's essence that more people go to Hell to Heaven is true, literally makes no sense to have a family or avoid despair if taken literally if we are to take the numbers he deployed. I can assert, with 100% certainty, I'm nowhere near as holy as St. Leonard. I do not stand in judgement of him, I question this sermon which is widely disseminated and needs to seen in some kind of proper context.

That context would be why would anyone would have a child if the chance of going to Heaven was 1 in 20,000? Everything in life is a measurement of risk, but if the risk is so high that mere existence was akin to damnation than what's the point of having a family? The point of having a family is to populate Heaven and God's command to be fruitful. If something is borderline statistically impossible, and morally improbable why should you have kids? That's a sincere question and I don't think there is a good answer.

Happy Easter