Author Topic: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard  (Read 1580 times)

Offline revival2029

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2021, 01:54:29 PM »
John 14:20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father and you in me and I in you. [this you in me and I in you is repeated over and over in the latter half of Gospel of John]  Believing in Christ absolutely without a doubt includes believing in Christ in the Eucharist and Christ in the Mystical Body of Christ as its invisible mind and King of the Kingdom of Heaven.  So absolutely Protestants do not believe in Jesus Christ per Christ's own definition of what it means to believe in him, so at personal judgement they will have an enormous amount of truth to accept in a moment, while at the same time living in contradiction to Jesus Christ because of lack of confession, so now they need to scramble to get a confession and accept all this truth in a moment, and they will likely also to be tested by demonic forces that will try to get them to choose their sin over Christ in the final moment before there soul leaves, tall task folks.

This was never about maximizing the number of saved, sorry folks, has to be to optimize the quality of the saved, and we are optimized when we have figured out whether through prayer or sacrifice to recruit additional people to the Kingdom of Heaven, even if some of us are predestined [whether we know it or not] and the Father will in turn try to optimize them.

Christ in us literally via the Eucharist, and us in him via the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the same thing and equal to the Catholic Church outside which there is no salvation.

Outside the Mystical Body of Christ there is absolutely no salvation, and to be grafted from the Mystical Body of Christ to the Glorified Body of Christ you must accept 100% all truth with no disagreement, although all truth will not be explicit till your personal judgement, and you cannot live in contradiction to Jesus Christ, and if you are lukewarm you will be spat out of the mouth of the Mystical Body of Christ, but oh for you poor sinners out there, if Christ is 100% your choice of King for the Kingdom of Heaven, I have no doubt you will find the grace to overcome your sin in time.

And just a final note, to be in the Mystical Body of Christ isnt that hard, you just need to enter visibly and not visibly separate yourself from a Church that has a valid Eucharist.  But to be grafted into the final Glorified Body of Christ, you must accept 100% of all truth and simply not live in contradiction to Jesus Christ, but if Jesus Christ is 100% your desired King, the rest should take care of itself.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 11:05:52 PM by revival2029 »
 

Offline Melkor

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2021, 02:24:34 PM »
No disrespect to any Saints, but some of them were absolute downers (melancholic I guess). Some people benefit from the fear of God getting put into them, some people lose their hope.
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2021, 02:27:30 PM »
If I'm guilty of being indignant or hyperbolic or insulting or triggering, you can give me the same latitude given to St. Leonard since that is what I was replying to.  Not to Miriam nor Max nor you. I'm at least not indignant nor hyperbolic because I'm trying to frighten people into despair and twisting the doctrine of the Church into pretzels in order to promote God's truth with deception.  So I would categorize my indignation as righteous in this particular case since I'm trying to defend people from falling into potentially tragic errors.

St. Leonard is a canonized Saint, speaking to a different time and culture than the one I live in.  I do not presume to know the best approach for speaking to his audience.  I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

He was not "trying to frighten people into despair" merely because you imagine that could be the result to his words.  He was trying to produce a salutary fear of God's judgment.  Since you and I live in a time when it seems that the vast majority of Catholics lack this salutary fear, we are well positioned to appreciate its value.  It is an admirable goal, whatever one thinks of his means.  Nor is he guilty of twisting doctrine merely because he did not give exactly the same emphasis that you would.

There are errors on both sides of the virtue of fear of the Lord, both despair and presumption.  I think that you could better "defend" people from these errors if you spoke about both of them rather than only one side.    I do not see your indignation as righteous or helpful.


Do you see my indignation and righteous anger at the testimony of "mystics" who put words in the mouth of the BVM as saying, "the most imperfect and despicable of creatures." ?

 

Offline Melkor

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2021, 02:29:12 PM »
If I'm guilty of being indignant or hyperbolic or insulting or triggering, you can give me the same latitude given to St. Leonard since that is what I was replying to.  Not to Miriam nor Max nor you. I'm at least not indignant nor hyperbolic because I'm trying to frighten people into despair and twisting the doctrine of the Church into pretzels in order to promote God's truth with deception.  So I would categorize my indignation as righteous in this particular case since I'm trying to defend people from falling into potentially tragic errors.

St. Leonard is a canonized Saint, speaking to a different time and culture than the one I live in.  I do not presume to know the best approach for speaking to his audience.  I am happy to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

He was not "trying to frighten people into despair" merely because you imagine that could be the result to his words.  He was trying to produce a salutary fear of God's judgment.  Since you and I live in a time when it seems that the vast majority of Catholics lack this salutary fear, we are well positioned to appreciate its value.  It is an admirable goal, whatever one thinks of his means.  Nor is he guilty of twisting doctrine merely because he did not give exactly the same emphasis that you would.

There are errors on both sides of the virtue of fear of the Lord, both despair and presumption.  I think that you could better "defend" people from these errors if you spoke about both of them rather than only one side.    I do not see your indignation as righteous or helpful.


Do you see my indignation and righteous anger at the testimony of "mystics" who put words in the mouth of the BVM as saying, "the most imperfect and despicable of creatures." ?

Sounds like an apparition all right, one from the devil: as he hates the Dear Lady so much.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 02:31:05 PM by Melkor »
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

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Offline Gerard

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2021, 02:48:32 PM »

Sounds like an apparition all right, one from the devil: as he hates the Dear Lady so much.

Well, according to the book of approved mystics on the life of Mary compiled by Raphael Brown, it looks like the description comes from St. Elizabeth of Schoenau. 

There are some things that the word "saint" in front of someone's name just can't protect them from scrutiny. 
 

Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2021, 02:51:56 PM »
I used to love this sermon until I realized how absolutely dreadful it is actual people, not the hypothetical mountain of justice men like to stand on. Speaking of how broad is the road and narrow the path is fine. But to speak with private revelation where he says "When I was presented before the Tribunal of God, sixty thousand people arrived at the same time from all parts of the world; out of that number, three were saved by going to Purgatory, and all the rest were damned."

Imagine if that were true? This would be a lesson in despair and never having a child. 60,000 and only 3 were saved. That's 1 in 20,000. I wouldn't board a plane with the same chances, and if I wouldn't board a plane as I would die 19,999 times to only living 1 time nor should I subject another person to the same... well unless I didn't like them.

Essentially the power of Satan is greater than the power of God for the Christian. That's just a lesson in despair. I understand the need to preach penance and how the majority go to Hell. But 1 in 1,000's? Having kids would be participating in the growth of Hell, not populating Heaven unless 1 in 1,000's is a population worth growing.

Many other preachers, like Fr. Faber, disagreed and frankly I don't see how anything other than this could be true. St. Leonard acknowledges other preachers saying the contrary in regards to Christians. If this view were true the only answer would be Jansenism and not having children. Birth would basically be a sentence to Hell. If you argue "free will" then explain how free you are if you have a 1 in a 1,000 chance or 1 in 20,000 chance of passing the gauntlet. It's a monstrous lesson in despair, destroys hope, and the joy of embracing the Resurrection.

If the Good Thief could be saved, so can many of us if we ask Our Lord to save us. Hope, not thrashing despair, keeps me Christian.
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2021, 02:56:50 PM »
Anyways, here's some words of hope for those that get a feeling of despair from this sermon by St. Leonard.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is prudence." Proverbs 9:10

"[14] Because he hoped in me I will deliver him: I will protect him because he hath known my name. [15] He shall cry to me, and I will hear him: I am with him in tribulation, I will deliver him, and I will glorify him. [16] I will fill him with length of days; and I will shew him my salvation." Psalm 90:14-16

Pray for Faith, Hope and Charity, and the Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
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Offline Melkor

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2021, 03:02:27 PM »
Hey the Saints weren’t perfect all the time, they made mistakes too. I refuse to believe the Holy Virgin referred to Herself as ‘most imperfect of creatures and disgusting.’ It’s ludicrous and simply not true. Our Lady was perfect, she wouldn’t lie like that because she couldn’t. Period
All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.

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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2021, 03:29:49 PM »
I, myself, am of a nature of being liberal on salvation. I have always tended towards many more get salvation than we suspect.

On posting this, I am rebuking myself for being liberal in this matter. It seems that many here are "liberal" also. Ouch!

Maybe God is blinding us to the true reality of the enormity of sin that exists today otherwise we would go insane.


Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 03:41:53 PM by King Wenceslas »
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2021, 03:36:40 PM »
The Church has always acknowledged that she is not in a position to know the Mind of God or even to assert accurately the details of the Last Judgment, "the number of the saved," etc. Another example of disputed claims is just how, how much, and even who will be made to "stand and account for" all sins "in front of all the court of Heaven."  By that I am referring, and so are some priests, to the Last Judgment.  According to some, the entire globe will know each and every sin of each and every person, which will be publicly revealed.  According to other priests, citing certain Doctors, the sins of the elect will be hidden, but the sins of the damned will be revealed.

The problem with too much servile, obsessive fear and self-loathing, and their near cousin, despair, is that the former can easily become the latter, which will itself damn us!  Thus, contrite, non-presumptuous trust is a better path to salvation, and is actually both more humble and more honest, in that we are not pretending to do God's work for Him --depriving Him of that solitary prerogative, and we are acknowledging that we are powerless to render a sentence for our own sins, but rather we relinquish that sentence to Him, while begging for mercy.
 
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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2021, 03:51:36 PM »
The Church has always acknowledged that she is not in a position to know the Mind of God or even to assert accurately the details of the Last Judgment, "the number of the saved," etc. Another example of disputed claims is just how, how much, and even who will be made to "stand and account for" all sins "in front of all the court of Heaven."  By that I am referring, and so are some priests, to the Last Judgment.  According to some, the entire globe will know each and every sin of each and every person, which will be publicly revealed.  According to other priests, citing certain Doctors, the sins of the elect will be hidden, but the sins of the damned will be revealed.

The problem with too much servile, obsessive fear and self-loathing, and their near cousin, despair, is that the former can easily become the latter, which will itself damn us!  Thus, contrite, non-presumptuous trust is a better path to salvation, and is actually both more humble and more honest, in that we are not pretending to do God's work for Him --depriving Him of that solitary prerogative, and we are acknowledging that we are powerless to render a sentence for our own sins, but rather we relinquish that sentence to Him, while begging for mercy.

All so very true. Despair would destroy everyone here. But in our everyday humdrum lives we tend to see the best in each individual we meet be he lay or priest and believe the best for everyone (except for the really bad person that is over the top). This sermon dispels the silly notion that it is easy to get to heaven.

It is really silly to believe that soft milktoast Catholics with their 1 hour a week church, designer clothes, BMW in the church parking lot, two children, and contraceptives in their master bathroom are still going to go to heaven in the end.

In this day and age if Catholics can't get to heaven or purgatory are pagans and Protestants going to make it? Highly unlikely.

Pray and keep your scapular on.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 04:02:58 PM by King Wenceslas »
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 01:30:18 AM »
But in our everyday humdrum lives we tend to see the best in each individual we meet be he lay or priest and believe the best for everyone (except for the really bad person that is over the top).

But that part we are admonished to do anyway, regardless of what we choose to believe about "the fewness of the saved."  That's part of laying moral judgment at God's feet and not ascribing it illegitimately to ourselves.  We can observe objective wrongs done by others and lack of virtue, but when we see those, we're supposed to make acts of reparation, rather than making a decision about the destiny of such souls.

Quote
This sermon dispels the silly notion that it is easy to get to heaven.
It is really silly to believe that soft milktoast Catholics with their 1 hour a week church, designer clothes, BMW in the church parking lot, two children, and contraceptives in their master bathroom are still going to go to heaven in the end.

Again, as a general rule, we can observe a superficial commitment to Catholicism as a reality, especially when the person himself acknowledges such minimalism, but we have no idea if such people will experience a life-changing illumination of conscience or a near-death experience that will wake them up and convert them profoundly. All we can do is grieve for the state of the Church Militant, pray for true conversions, make acts of reparation, and try to be counter witnesses of fervor and consistency.

Just keep in mind that the fewness of the saved may leave out not only contracepting Catholics but some/many orthodox Catholics who, relatively speaking, may be lukewarm within the graces  and opportunities they have been given. When I hear sermons or read text about the fewness of the saved, I'm not thinking about half-hearted, modernist Catholics who aren't recognizable as Catholics; I think about myself. I'm actually really terrified of both my Particular Judgment and the Last Judgment. 

I also don't understand the part about "giving an accounting."  There is no accounting possible, in my view.  Clearly I sinned because I was selfish, deliberately or carelessly let my passions control me, or failed to work rigorously on my Capital Sins. Because every sin committed is a decision irretrievable, the accounting is doomed to be hopelessly unbalanced.  There is no "explanation" that could ever be acceptable to God. The only possible "explanation" is self-accusation, which is what we were taught Confession is for.  The idea that there's a second Confession, for those same sins (assuming contrition has been abundant), is very troubling to me.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2021, 06:06:08 AM »
Happy Good Friday, everyone! This is the day when God so loved us all that He became our Savior and gave His Life as a Propitiation for all our sins.

St. John says:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 Jn 2:2)

The Precious Blood of Jesus Christ Our Lord is sufficient to wash away every sin. It washed away all our sins, both original and actual if any (for converts) in Holy Baptism. It washes away our mortal sins in Confession through the Keys of the Blood given to Priests. It is mystically sprinkled on us through the absolution given by Christ through His Priest. It washes away our venial sins when we receive Him with love in Holy Communion. Simply by assisting well at the Holy Sacrifice, we can blot out the remnants of our sins. It is easy imo for good Catholics who love the Lord.

There's no need to hold to extremes imo. Rev 7 shows us the number of the elect is very great indeed. One single day is not necessarily representative of the whole human race. It is likely there will be an Age of Mary according to many Saints and during those times almost all will be Catholic and many will be saved. One can safely hold to, say, 40%, a minority, following the Saints. One is also allowed to hold to a slight majority, say 60%, following Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, the CE etc who defend that minority view that a majority of Catholics will be saved. Since both are allowed, hold to whatever will make you a better and more fervent Catholic. I personally go with the former as a safer and more rigorous view.

For those tempted to despair, cheer up! It's not so difficult as some imagine to be saved. Note how the Saint concludes. It is de Fide we cannot be lost unless we choose to be: I.e. unless we freely choose to knowingly commit many mortal sins and then willingly die in final impenitence. As long as we sincerely repent, with Contrition, or in Confession, we are forgiven. The elect according to the more common opinion will not see their sins in the Final Judgment in the same way the damned will. It is a simple matter of wearing the Scapular, praying many Rosaries, frequenting the Sacraments, and being devoted to the Cross of Christ and the Precious Blood of Jesus, Who redeemed us on this day with so much suffering and at the Price of so great a Sacrifice, in order to be saved.

Salvation is easy for those who love the Lord and trust in His Sacrifice.

God Bless.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 06:15:06 AM by Xavier »
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Offline Arvinger

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2021, 02:36:30 PM »
It is possible that majority of Christians will be saved, yet God allowed sermons like St Leonard's to be preached in order to make us take our salvation seriously and not fall into presumption. A temporary motivation-booster, so to speak, rather than a doctrine.

Even Bishop Barron's position is not heretical and possible (albeit most likely way too optimistic), and that does not mean apocatastasis and universalism. If we do not know fate of any soul (we don't), then there is no case in which we can exclude the possibility that a person died in the state of grace. If we cannot exclude such possibility in any individual case, it logically follows that we likewise cannot exclude the possibility that all of them converted before death and were saved (since we don't know the fate of any individual soul). Thus, I don't think those who preach hope of all being converted before death and saved are heretics (those who preach universalism and everyone being saved no matter what are). Too optimistic, perhaps, but not in a heretical manner.

It is really silly to believe that soft milktoast Catholics with their 1 hour a week church, designer clothes, BMW in the church parking lot, two children, and contraceptives in their master bathroom are still going to go to heaven in the end.

The reason for damnation is dying in the state of mortal sin. It is not a mortal sin to own BWM or designer clothes, and neither is not attending Mass during the week (unless it is a Holy Day of Obligation). Only contraceptives qualify as a reason for damnation from that list.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 03:02:14 PM by Arvinger »
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Most Catholics Will Go To Hell - St. Leonard
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2021, 07:13:05 PM »
It is possible that majority of Christians will be saved, yet God allowed sermons like St Leonard's to be preached in order to make us take our salvation seriously and not fall into presumption. A temporary motivation-booster, so to speak, rather than a doctrine.

Even Bishop Barron's position is not heretical and possible (albeit most likely way too optimistic), and that does not mean apocatastasis and universalism. If we do not know fate of any soul (we don't), then there is no case in which we can exclude the possibility that a person died in the state of grace. If we cannot exclude such possibility in any individual case, it logically follows that we likewise cannot exclude the possibility that all of them converted before death and were saved (since we don't know the fate of any individual soul). Thus, I don't think those who preach hope of all being converted before death and saved are heretics (those who preach universalism and everyone being saved no matter what are). Too optimistic, perhaps, but not in a heretical manner.

It is really silly to believe that soft milktoast Catholics with their 1 hour a week church, designer clothes, BMW in the church parking lot, two children, and contraceptives in their master bathroom are still going to go to heaven in the end.

The reason for damnation is dying in the state of mortal sin. It is not a mortal sin to own BWM or designer clothes, and neither is not attending Mass during the week (unless it is a Holy Day of Obligation). Only contraceptives qualify as a reason for damnation from that list.

Isn't Bp Barron putting forward reheated apocatastasis, condemned at the Second Council of Constantinople, the Fifth Ecumenical Council, along with Origen? It might also be noted that contrary to what Barron repeatedly asserts, it is not wholly certain that Origen espoused apocatastasis, but offered it as a theory. Anyhow, I think it an excess. St Leonard might be overharsh, driving someone to a 'why bother?' sort of despair but universalism surely leads the same way. 'Do as thou wilt' for all are saved eventually, just be sure the degeneracy is worth the delay, is a  interpretation that can reasonably result from Barron's universalism. It's a bit more than a 'a nuancing of the massa damnata theology' which Barron claims of von Balthasar, and really himself, given how he takes this theologian as a great authority.

I think we should as Philippians 2 urges us 'work out....salvation with fear and trembling.'
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 
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