Author Topic: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?  (Read 479 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

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What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« on: March 06, 2021, 09:25:15 PM »
Debate.
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2021, 09:39:35 PM »
I think to a great extent because they’re an island nation physically separate from the European continent.  More likely to develop a religious/cultural/geographical stronghold resistant to Rome.  I’m thinking of pre-Reformation England having their own distinct liturgy, the Sarum rite.  I don’t think Italy, Germany, or France had to have their own version of the Roman Mass.  It’s a very nationalistic country, not in a bad way, except of course for creating its own National Church.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 09:42:56 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2021, 11:16:54 PM »
Theft of Catholic Churches and Monasteries.

Outlawing the Catholic Faith for about 275 years.

Hung, drawn and quartering of clandestine Catholic priests.

The English monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church (1559 - Act of Supremacy).

Fines for not attending the Church of England services (1559 - Act of Uniformity).

Anyone found to have persuaded someone to convert to Catholicism was guilty of treason and could be put to death (1581 - Act to retain the Queen’s subjects in their due obedience).
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2021, 03:18:56 PM »
There was a notable cunning in how Elizabeth and Francis Walsingham dealt with Catholicism. Instead of great numbers of burning of heretics which made even Queen Mary's husband Philip of Spain so uneasy that his chaplain castigated this policy, a range of recurring recusancy fines of maybe -/1/- drained the resources of most but a hard core of Recusant families. The Popish Recusants Act 1605 in the third year of James I (3 Jac. 1) menaced Recusants with a £60 fine or forfeiture of two thirds of their land. Now these were never evenly enforced, but through a process of attrition and the ability of Tudor propagandists to make Catholic Europe seem like the Other. There were still Recusants hearing the Sarum Mass in the eighteenth century, but it was a fading remnant of a world long gone. The Duke of Norfolk had a chapel where his grace and his household heard Mass, but his tenants attended Anglican 'Divine Service.' When later the pragmatic Royal Navy ditched anti-Catholic rules which long after remained on the State Books, Catholicism was a preserve of some lords, their households and immediate dependants, plus Irish and other migrants.

Essentially, steady public policy. Much of this law was in force in Ireland, and efforts were made with an Irish translation of the Book of Common Prayer and Bishop's Bible (a predecessor of the King James Version), but the will never existed in most of the ruling class. Elizabeth I poured most of her resources into defeating Irish rebels and their Spanish and Papal allies, but once taxes flowed and the easy sail from Ireland to England was not under hostile control, the religious leaning of the Irish could be ignored provided it was forced into the private sphere.
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Offline OmniaInstaurareInChristo

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2021, 06:25:10 PM »
Subscribing to this interesting topic. I am a convert from the Episcopal Church.


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Offline mikemac

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2021, 05:08:20 PM »
In a BBC history documentary I once heard this certain (((BBC broadcaster))), I forget his name, say that all the Irish were Anglicans before Catholic emancipation in the British Isles.  I guess (((he))) never heard of or wanted to recognize the clandestine Mass Rock services that had been happening when Catholicism was outlawed.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2021, 05:44:24 PM »
In a BBC history documentary I once heard this certain (((BBC broadcaster))), I forget his name, say that all the Irish were Anglicans before Catholic emancipation in the British Isles.  I guess (((he))) never heard of or wanted to recognize the clandestine Mass Rock services that had been happening when Catholicism was outlawed.

Perhaps in some weirdly nominal way as every Irishman had to pay tithes to the Established Church until Catholic emancipation. This was such a source of rural violence that even if Catholic emancipation had been further delayed by coronation oath and similar malarkey, the obligation of paying tithes might have been replaced by a Treasury subvention or concession as happened.
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Offline drummerboy

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2021, 01:21:02 AM »
England's supreme irony:

King makes himself "pope" over England
Terror over Jesuits and Popery
Now behead the king
Then welcome king back, that experiment didn't go well
That king is too much a papist, lets import a foreigner to be our king while still living in terror of another foreigner - the Pope - taking us over
Result is a monarch that is head of church and state, thereby giving him more power than the true Pope ever had, while developing a cult of nationalism centered on him

But at least we're free from Popery!
"Mightier than the sound of many waters, mightier than the surgings of the sea: mighty is the Lord on high"
- Ps 92:4
 
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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2021, 01:16:01 PM »
Theft of Catholic Churches and Monasteries.

Outlawing the Catholic Faith for about 275 years.

Hung, drawn and quartering of clandestine Catholic priests.

The English monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church (1559 - Act of Supremacy).

Fines for not attending the Church of England services (1559 - Act of Uniformity).

Anyone found to have persuaded someone to convert to Catholicism was guilty of treason and could be put to death (1581 - Act to retain the Queen’s subjects in their due obedience).

Answered the question quite well. End of debate for all intents and purposes.
 
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Offline Edmundia

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2021, 11:54:17 AM »
Sorry this is late.
As someone who lives in England, but not English, and a Convert from Anglicanism may I comment ?

        There are a huge number of reasons for the persistence  of  Anglicanism, despite all its complications and lack of coherence.
        Most ordinary people are not very theologically minded and are happy with (if they are "religious") a nicely done, often beautifully done, service, which often combines: a historic and elegant building,- rooted in the community - a good choir, a well prepared service and congregational singing and participation.  There is a huge variety of service and with several different anglican churches in a city ; there is a choice, ranging from the most catholic looking to the most Presbyterian looking. The Vicars are usually well educated and excellent at human relationships and "reading" people - they are not dogmatic and to use awful modern expressions they meet people where they are. When - as a traditional catholic - I have talked to anglican Vicars, male and female I have always come away with what might be described as a warm inner glow ! They are very much people persons, frequently married and with experience of the world, found at mixed religious schools and universities.
 Almost everything I have said about anglicanism - if you turned it around is what modern parish Catholicism is like in England : foul buildings, dreadful choirs, (if there is one at all) careless, ill prepared services, little serious interest in the seasons and badly thought out ignorant sermons, coarse and ill educated priests who are clericalists of the worst kind.
           In fact, if I couldn't go to Old Rite Masses and didn't believe it was all true, even after thirty years, I would be back to the Church of England within minutes. Read Rose Macaulay's THE TOWERS OF TREBIZOND , a wonderful Anglican novel of 1955, and still in print,  which tells you more about High Church anglicanism than any theological text book.
 
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Offline drummerboy

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2021, 01:39:24 PM »
Did you ever attend Mass at the ICK's apostolate?  It's only a few years old, we have had two canon's assigned there come through at our oratory, but I never had the chance to speak with them about it.
"Mightier than the sound of many waters, mightier than the surgings of the sea: mighty is the Lord on high"
- Ps 92:4
 

Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2021, 04:31:13 PM »
Theft of Catholic Churches and Monasteries.

Outlawing the Catholic Faith for about 275 years.

Hung, drawn and quartering of clandestine Catholic priests.

The English monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church (1559 - Act of Supremacy).

Fines for not attending the Church of England services (1559 - Act of Uniformity).

Anyone found to have persuaded someone to convert to Catholicism was guilty of treason and could be put to death (1581 - Act to retain the Queen’s subjects in their due obedience).

Exactly correct.  It is also important to note that this was a "great reset" just like the one we are about to go through at this time in history.  It was the religion necessary to steal, start capitalism in order to profit from the dawning of a maritime world.  Where ships and men and weapons colonize the world and assign a balance sheet to each individual.  For all intents and purposes. 

Brittania ruled the waves.  And this reset made it possible to not only compete, but defeat Spain and France. 
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Offline drummerboy

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Re: What factors caused Anglicanism's permanence in England?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2021, 01:13:38 AM »
  Belloc theorized that it was Britain's breakaway from the Church that caused the Protestant Revolt to become permanent, instead of another heresy that swept Europe and was in turn swept under the rug.  He pointed out that the only countries that left the Church were countries that had never been part of the Roman Empire with the exception of England.  England in turn helped prop up the Protestant cause secure in their island home.  I believe this was in Europe and the Faith.


"Mightier than the sound of many waters, mightier than the surgings of the sea: mighty is the Lord on high"
- Ps 92:4
 
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