Author Topic: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain  (Read 1071 times)

Offline christulsa

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Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« on: March 06, 2021, 06:26:21 PM »
Aunt Sally makes a mean apple pie.  After dinner while eating a piece you say “Dear God in heaven, that’s some good apple pie.”

Would that be using the Lord’s name in vain?

Msgr. Oconner from the old country (Ireland) can’t get little Joey to stop interrupting his Religion class and says “Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, why can’t I get you to settle down Joey” (in a thick Irish accent, said with some Irish wit).

Would that also be a sin or bad language towards the Lord God?

You come home from work and the Mrs tells you that your son Patrick gave his sister Brigid yet another black eye playing in the back yard.  You take your son behind the shed and give him a good lickin’ then say “Good God Patrick.  Why do you keep beating on your sister?  I pray you stop doing that.”

Did he also speak with disrespect about God, using the Lord’s name in vain?

I’m asking obviously for personal reasons, having been told certain of my comments border on “blasphemy” lately here (“Good God,” “Good God, man,” “I’d bet Jesus got a buzz on with his Apostles now and then,” etc.)  Even though the tone and intent was not ill-willed.   IF I’ve sinned, then my apologies to all here, I will refrain from referring to God or Jesus in a less than formal way.  I’m going to mention these problems brought to my attention in detail in confession tomorrow (to our Society priest), and will share here his general feedback if they are sins.  Perhaps I was wrong. 

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=25228.msg526869#msg526869

If so, can anyone please share here catechism sources or talks by priests that would explain why any of the above specific examples would be wrong, disrespectful to God, or God forbid, blasphemy?  Or to the contrary why there should be no scrupulous thinking about those above examples.  Not trying to win an argument or scandalize, just looking for more clarity on the subject.  Should make for an interesting discussion. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 07:57:31 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2021, 09:22:56 PM »
As I was taught the commandment is no swearing or oaths
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2021, 11:57:35 PM »
And as I was taught, what is included in the 2nd Commandment are the following:

1. Profanity, which covers both light profanity (careless, casual, non-religious use of the name of God) and heavy irreverence (cursing, swearing)

2. inappropriate oaths ("I swear to God," "As God is my witness," "So help me God," etc.) outside of the appropriate setting, such as being called to swear on a Bible in court, etc.

3. Perjury: lying orally under oath in court or on a document

4. Making an inappropriate, "frivolous" vow. (Individual vows outside of sacraments such as marriage should be approved by a priest)

5. Breaking a vow (marriage vow, religious vow, or other authorized vow)

6. Blasphemy, which is not the same thing as light/disrespectful profanity. It's obviously much more serious. Someone else accused Chris of this, but I did not.

A FEW REFERENCES
Page Two
http://www.sensustraditionis.org/ExaminationConscienceLong.pdf

At 33:42. Stops at 42:44

2155
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a2.htm

Beginning at around 1:13:


 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2021, 12:38:44 AM »
At 33:42. Stops at 42:44

The priest's explanation would address my actual questions in the OP.  He gives the qualifier: ""with no intention of paying reverence and honor to God."  Time 40:25 onward. Even if silently you mean it in reverence to God, therefore no sin.  To say there is evil intent is to judge the internal forum, which even one's regular confessor typically doesn't do unless you show impenitence.
 
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Offline MaximGun

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2021, 03:40:29 AM »
Since it is avoidable, I avoid it.

There are many alternatives expressions and expletives.

Anyone blasphemes in my house and I hit them.  I have asked people to leave before now.

Notice how so many words now are offensive to some group or other but every movie has someone saying JC in it.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2021, 04:45:27 AM »
We should never use the Lord's Name in association with a curse or swear word or insult. We can call on the Lord's Name in prayer reverently. Like saying "Dear Sweet Jesus, please help us", "Oh Good Good, please protect us", "Dear Lord, please remain with us" etc.

St. Alphonsus firmly discourages using profanity/vulgarity in general. Definitely, the holy Doctor would condemn using it in any way along with God's Holy Name, as modern non-Christian worldlings and blasphemers sometimes do. As Catholic Christians, we should call on the Lord's Name only devoutly and piously. So after God through Moses gave them that command, God Himself through Moses again gave the prayer, "24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee. 25 The Lord shew his face to thee, and have mercy on thee. 26 The Lord turn his countenance to thee, and give thee peace." (Num 6:24-26) which in the original Hebrew uses the Lord's Old Testament Name YHWH given to the Jews. So we definitely can use the Lord's Name like this, in prayer, or to bless, but never to curse, or as a swear word.

St. Alphonsus: "5. In a word, obscene tongues are the ruin of the world. One of them does more mischief than a hundred devils; because it is the cause of the perdition of many souls. This is not my language; it is the language of the Holy Ghost. ”A slippery mouth worketh ruin.” (Prov. xxvi. 28.) And when is it that this havoc of souls is effected, and that such grievous insults are offered to God? It is in the summer, at the time when God bestows upon you the greatest temporal blessings. It is then that he supplies you for the entire year with corn, wine, oil, and other fruits of the earth. It is then that there are as many sins committed by obscene words, as there are grains of corn or bunches of grapes. O ingratitude! How does God bear with us? And who is the cause of these sins? They who speak immodestly are the cause of them. Hence they must render an account to God, and shall be punished for all the sins committed by those who hear them. “But I will require his blood at thy hand.” (Ezec. iii. 11.) But let us pass to the second point." From: http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2017/08/19/vice-speaking-immodestly-st-alphonsus/
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Offline diaduit

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2021, 04:57:27 AM »
Aunt Sally makes a mean apple pie.  After dinner while eating a piece you say “Dear God in heaven, that’s some good apple pie.”

Would that be using the Lord’s name in vain?

Msgr. Oconner from the old country (Ireland) can’t get little Joey to stop interrupting his Religion class and says “Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, why can’t I get you to settle down Joey” (in a thick Irish accent, said with some Irish wit).

Would that also be a sin or bad language towards the Lord God?

You come home from work and the Mrs tells you that your son Patrick gave his sister Brigid yet another black eye playing in the back yard.  You take your son behind the shed and give him a good lickin’ then say “Good God Patrick.  Why do you keep beating on your sister?  I pray you stop doing that.”

Did he also speak with disrespect about God, using the Lord’s name in vain?

I’m asking obviously for personal reasons, having been told certain of my comments border on “blasphemy” lately here (“Good God,” “Good God, man,” “I’d bet Jesus got a buzz on with his Apostles now and then,” etc.)  Even though the tone and intent was not ill-willed.   IF I’ve sinned, then my apologies to all here, I will refrain from referring to God or Jesus in a less than formal way.  I’m going to mention these problems brought to my attention in detail in confession tomorrow (to our Society priest), and will share here his general feedback if they are sins.  Perhaps I was wrong. 

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=25228.msg526869#msg526869

If so, can anyone please share here catechism sources or talks by priests that would explain why any of the above specific examples would be wrong, disrespectful to God, or God forbid, blasphemy?  Or to the contrary why there should be no scrupulous thinking about those above examples.  Not trying to win an argument or scandalize, just looking for more clarity on the subject.  Should make for an interesting discussion.

Gulp  :-\

I asked a priest about this before and he is a well known stickler for the 'rules' and he said I was over thinking the OMG sayings etc.  Another priest would say different but I suppose the quoted lessons on profanity says otherwise.

 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2021, 06:43:12 AM »
Yes of course no blasphemy, or cursing God, or profanity of the Lord’s name.  That isn’t in question here.

What I asked was how the specific examples in the OP qualify, ie from specific explanations of Church authority, when the intention is still to be reverential to God.   If a Catholic were to say “Dear Lord, that is quite a statement you made in that last post of yours,” I wouldn’t find that something profane against God knowing they likely aren’t using it with an irreverent intention, but with some pious sentiment.   My wife more devout than me does this all the time, trad priests clarifying to her there’s no fault in it.  But if someone visiting my house insisted on cursing God I’d ask them to stop, if not then leave (I had to do this once).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 07:05:45 AM by christulsa »
 
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Offline red solo cup

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2021, 07:48:16 AM »
I once used the expression Good Heavens in this forum and got a scolding PM from one of our more scrupulous members.
"It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry"
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2021, 08:01:04 AM »
I once used the expression Good Heavens in this forum and got a scolding PM from one of our more scrupulous members.

Good Heavens who??

only joking  ;)
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2021, 11:37:38 AM »
Ok so I went to confession to our Society priest here this morning.   Mentioned the statements I made plus the hypothetical examples I’m asking about in the OP.   Per Fr. Kopac, SSPX of St Michael’s Chapel in Oklahoma City (nice little community I call an “oasis,” set in the countryside surrounded by a pond and ducks):

1. They are NOT sins.

2. Let alone mortal sins.

3. Let alone approaching anything like blasphemy.

4. Therefore they DO NOT break the 2nd Commandment or use the Lord’s name in vain.

5. “It comes down to INTENT (not the statement itself).  If the intent is irreverence, or to have no reverence at all when referencing God, then yes it would offend God, at least venially.”

That said, since it obviously offends some people here of a different sensibility, I will only refer to the Good Lord’s name on this forum in the most solemn manner going forward.   
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 11:41:20 AM by christulsa »
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2021, 11:44:23 AM »
This is going to be my last post on this thread.  I'm just surprised in general that, on this, the 19th day of Lent, people would prefer to argue technicalities, or what they can get away with legalistically (they believe or have been told), than to join in the general mortification of our five senses (including hearing) and our faculties (including our tongues) that the Saints, The Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, and today's traditional apostolates have enjoined us to do.

It's not a theological debate, and it's also not about scrupulosity. It's a spiritual recommendation by holy men and women far above our station, although every trad priest I know --consisting of several communities of men-- has also advised that casual, non-religious use of the holy name (God, Lord, etc.) is literally profane because it means "[away] from the holy temple/place [where God belongs]" and that it is light matter and that it scandalizes (lightly). It's not about challenging or defending egos -- mine or anyone else's, in my view. I made a simple request on another thread for the taming of language. It was not a demand and not an invitation to a debate on technicalities. If one or more posters prefers to make a public argument about it, I'm no longer going to participate. I'll respond later to PM's, but I think the reaction is overblown.

Lack of restraint in language from any of us can scandalize.  This is not about internal judging of anyone's motives.  It's about external actions only -- the content of my earlier request.

It's Lent, people.  I leave you with this last sermon about mortifying our senses. It's not specifically about irreverent, careless language, but it's simply a reminder about mortifying all of senses, including our speech. I know there's another sermon specifically about language, but I'm on the way to Mass.

I'll post something later in Liturgical Life and in the Lenten thread about the matters that I thought we were supposed to be spending more time on, but obviously not many people are interested.

 
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2021, 12:08:51 PM »
Miriam, the priest you actually referenced said the same exact thing as the SSPX priest today, in the video you posted which I time-stamped, that it comes down to intention.  No one suggested avoiding responsibility based on technicalities.   Yet you have still not provided a concrete example from a Priest or catechism saying otherwise than these 2 trad priests (Fr Kopac, SSPX and the actual first priest you referenced) that specifically a casual reference to God with good intent to not be irreverent is itself a sin of profanity.  Those are two Priests, vs your own private judgment of others here as a laywoman.  And nobody here is taking away from your references to Lent or the Liturgy.  Im not angry, but at least consider what Father said. Peace be with you this Lent...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 12:31:45 PM by christulsa »
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2021, 03:39:28 PM »
Fr. Ripperger says that there are only two ways to properly use God's name: 1.) demonstratively, and 2.) in prayer or in reverence (see 6:51: https://youtu.be/vn-GNljbNs0?t=411 ). ChrisTulsa's hypothetical situations don't fall into either of the aforementioned categories, so they are sinful. They wouldn't be blasphemy, but they would be profanity. The second (and possibly the third) example might constitute a legitimate ejaculatory prayer, but let's be honest. And even if it is, it should probably not be spoken audibly, as it's likely to cause scandal given the circumstances. (Especially the second example, where children are involved.)
I do not at all see how the first example could ever be anything but profanity, other than perhaps an oath (having been truncated from "I swear by my dear God in heaven, that's some good apple pie").

With regard to the idea that "the sin is in the intention", Fr. Ripperger says otherwise (see 7:28: https://youtu.be/vn-GNljbNs0?t=448 ). He says that the sin is in the act itself, hence an actor isn't allowed to recite a profane or blasphemous line even if the actor has no ill intention while doing so.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 03:47:24 PM by Daniel »
 
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Offline The Curt Jester

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Re: Using the Lord’s Name in Vain
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2021, 03:46:13 PM »
When saying such things, those around you have no idea what your intention is.  For the sake of prudence and not scandalizing others, it would be best to avoid the use of God's name for exclamations and such.  Also, once you're in the habit of one thing, it's so much easier to go to the next degree without realizing it.
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"
 
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