Author Topic: Bishop Barron at it again  (Read 3076 times)

Offline Lynne

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2021, 02:29:02 PM »

I must admit that I fit the definition and it has turned many people off. Other traditionalists are not like that, they're far more humble than I am. After the election aftermath I've had some months to examine my conscience and start an Ignatian Spiritual Exercise program. I pray that it will help me change. I had to reduce my time listening and reading angry conservative blogs because they were an occasion of sin for me.

Yes, I've had to reduce my reading of political blogs too (going back to the Obama regime).
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2021, 04:27:35 AM »
Even though in the past he's called it "fabricated liturgy" and "a banal, on the spot product."

Yes, and they're mentioned here:

https://taylormarshall.com/2013/01/eleven-great-quotes-from-pope-benedict.html

These are truly great quotes, I wasn't aware of some of them, thanks. I'm saving some of them, for my discussions with conservative Catholics and diocesan Priests, on the TLM, on Vatican II etc. I love especially how Pope Benedict XVI calls the TLM the Church's Highest and Holiest Possession: “I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent.” But yes, as MG said, it would have been good for Pope Benedict XVI to have publicly offered the TLM.

Unfortunately, the progressive wing in the Church, which has much influence in Rome, is very anti-TLM, and has much hostility to Tradition and traditionalists. Pope Benedict XVI had to defend himself from them for what they perceived as overly favorable steps to trads. If not for them, I believe Pope Benedict XVI would have offered the TLM. Pope Francis offered Mass once versus Deum, but the NOM. I believe the Altar itself was designed "facing East/toward the Lord".

Pope Benedict XVI's writings on that point are also good: "The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is locked into itself. The common turning toward the East was not a “celebration toward the wall”; it did not mean that the priest “had his back to the people”: the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian Liturgy the congregation looked together “toward the Lord”.

And, "On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord." (Spirit of Liturgy, ch. 3) I pray God grants many more Priests do at least this this next decade.

Coming back to Bp. Barron, I haven't listened to him much, but I believe he preaches about Mother Mary, the Eucharist etc also. So we can find some common ground with him, it's just that his errors on other subjects seem to defeat the very purpose of preaching, until they are remedied. Bp. Barron dialogues with Christianity-hating Anti-Theists/Atheists/Agnostics, many Anti-Christian Jews and Muslims etc etc, the least he can do is dialogue with traditional Catholics. But maybe he's afraid that if that happens, he may find some of the traditional Catholic critiques of post-Conciliar modernism etc to be completely correct.

Let's pray for His Excellency, nonetheless. He needs it.
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2021, 12:34:31 PM »
I went to the article and found the diversion more interesting -- the "mean and judgmental" video, LOL. 


I actually think a lot of the comments were spot on because although it sounded at the beginning like just another trash-trads-party, it ended up being much more truthful about the superficiality of the N.O.M. and the "expectations" there than I would have guessed from the beginning.  I guess the host is in the process of making some film with several European and other locations, regarding the Latin Mass.

The men, especially, were totally spot on about the purpose of the traditional Mass and how being serious about one's presence has nothing to do with being "mean and nasty" to newcomers but rather shutting everything out except our prayerful presence because it is not about people and how they relate to each other; it's about God.

One of the men also made a really great point about the refuge of the TLM and the instinctive protectiveness about that sacred space -- that gets translated into "unwelcoming," which --again-- shifts the focus to so-called social responsibility at an unsocial occasion.

This all strikes a chord with me because I'm in crisis with a friend from the N.O. who claims she wants to learn Tradition, but she is so closed to anything but a subjective experience of religion and so threatened by anything except subjectivity, that I'm finding this very painful and it is definitively straining our friendship. I may open a different thread in the hopes of getting some advice.

I have been to every stripe of traditional parish. Trads can be welcoming and truly Charitable to new faces, yet downright dismissive and even hostile.
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2021, 02:48:37 PM »
The Barron bible is keenly priced, but I'd be wary of its commentary. We all hope hell is empty, but Barron espouses his hope in a way that he thinks it likely all are eventually saved. It doesn't matter if Origen said so. I take the fearsome words of many saints over the comfy idea of apokatastasis. I perhaps just see Barron as someone utterly perplexed. The landscape of 'St John Paul the Great' has vanished, and is a very small space now. Barron seems to be casting around for a comfortable niche, and all those trads are harshing his buzz. Just becoming an eloquent spokesman for Francis and his henchmen would probably be miserable for him.
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Offline james03

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2021, 04:49:51 PM »
Quote
Apparently, in his view traditional Catholics are a fringe movement of socially-inept people who desire to overthrow the Church and install their own 1950’s-style religion in its place.

He's wrong there.  We don't want to overthrow or install anything.  Rather we ignore people like Bishop Barron.  Along the lines of: Leave the dead to bury the dead.
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2021, 08:26:28 PM »
I'm reminded of the old George Carlin bit about anyone who drives slower than you is an "idiot."  And anyone who drives faster than you is a "maniac." 
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2021, 08:32:43 PM »
Bp. Barron is probably not happy with Trad growth in the Church for two possible reasons:  First, he's opposed to an understanding of traditional theology since he imbibes in copious amounts of Modernism.  The second point is his age.  He probably doesn't think he has the time or energy to learn and practice traditional Catholicism, the TLM and the other sacraments and still retain influence and gain power in the Church. 

Even among well intentioned Novus Ordo priests who realize what is wrong in the Church and know that traditionalism is the way out, they are mid-to late careerists and simply do not have the proper training and they think they are too old to learn. 


 
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Offline ralfy

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2021, 12:44:17 AM »

These are truly great quotes, I wasn't aware of some of them, thanks. I'm saving some of them, for my discussions with conservative Catholics and diocesan Priests, on the TLM, on Vatican II etc. I love especially how Pope Benedict XVI calls the TLM the Church's Highest and Holiest Possession: “I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It’s impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent.” But yes, as MG said, it would have been good for Pope Benedict XVI to have publicly offered the TLM.

Unfortunately, the progressive wing in the Church, which has much influence in Rome, is very anti-TLM, and has much hostility to Tradition and traditionalists. Pope Benedict XVI had to defend himself from them for what they perceived as overly favorable steps to trads. If not for them, I believe Pope Benedict XVI would have offered the TLM. Pope Francis offered Mass once versus Deum, but the NOM. I believe the Altar itself was designed "facing East/toward the Lord".

Pope Benedict XVI's writings on that point are also good: "The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is locked into itself. The common turning toward the East was not a “celebration toward the wall”; it did not mean that the priest “had his back to the people”: the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian Liturgy the congregation looked together “toward the Lord”.

And, "On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord." (Spirit of Liturgy, ch. 3) I pray God grants many more Priests do at least this this next decade.

Coming back to Bp. Barron, I haven't listened to him much, but I believe he preaches about Mother Mary, the Eucharist etc also. So we can find some common ground with him, it's just that his errors on other subjects seem to defeat the very purpose of preaching, until they are remedied. Bp. Barron dialogues with Christianity-hating Anti-Theists/Atheists/Agnostics, many Anti-Christian Jews and Muslims etc etc, the least he can do is dialogue with traditional Catholics. But maybe he's afraid that if that happens, he may find some of the traditional Catholic critiques of post-Conciliar modernism etc to be completely correct.

Let's pray for His Excellency, nonetheless. He needs it.

Don't forget his other points given in the article shared here:

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=25244.msg526814#msg526814
 

Offline MaximGun

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2021, 01:59:39 AM »
We do want 50s Catholicism, it is true.

1850s.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2021, 04:06:53 AM »
Yes, some people have the stereotype that trads are mean and grumpy. We have to work to change that perception. We should be holy, joyful, loving, welcoming, caring and kind to those we meet. Of course, no one is perfect, beside Jesus, Mary and Joseph, but we should strive to live up that ideal. We believe Catholic Tradition offers the fullness of Truth and the highest of the means of sanctification. Our lives must reflect that reality in order for others to be convinced of it. Our lives must be saintly, filled with love of God and love of neighbor. We must be really living an authentic and integral Catholic Christian life, practising the Gospel and the works of mercy.

We can dialogue with conservative Catholics, especially Bishops and Priests like Bp. Barron, and try to explain to them the reasons it would be good if they offered the TLM, and embraced traditional praxis teaching. How it would produce good fruits, lead to greater Mass attendance, more frequent Confessions and more devout Communions, greater conformity with Church teaching on moral issues like abortion and contraception, more generous acceptance of large families, and holiness generally that is reflected in love for one another and desire for their good, especially spiritual good. We must explain the purpose of the Sacred Liturgy is to give Glory to God, and the TLM, being the complete and full Mass, does this best. Moreover, it instructs and sanctifies the Priest who offers it, even if he does so only now and then. Many Priests have experienced that offering the TLM has very greatly blessed and helped their Priesthood. That's the service Tradition is here to provide for the good of the Church, the Glory of God, and the sanctification and salvation of souls, and we are called by God to lovingly participate in doing so, with charity toward all. I believe Church Authorities will be more favorable to Tradition when we can convincingly show them the manifest good fruits it produces in our lives. They are more likely to be convinced by that than by reasoned arguments.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline MaximGun

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2021, 04:31:42 AM »
Yes, some people have the stereotype that trads are mean and grumpy. We have to work to change that perception. We should be holy, joyful, loving, welcoming, caring and kind to those we meet.

Half the people in the western world support sodomites marrying each other.  A huge number are openly fornicating without even bothering to marry when they have children. A majority support abortion.  Are you suggesting we should invite such people into our homes to be welcoming?

When they invite us to their transexual child's wedding what do we say?

I can be friendly with my Hindu and Christian and Orthodox Jewish neighbours.  They have family values and would generally not see Traditional Catholics as uncharitable or mean.  There is even the odd white British person who is still on their first marriage and does not blaspheme every 5 seconds who you could have at the dinner table and not scandalised your own children.  Generally they are over 60 years old and raised in a different world.

Are you suggesting that a US Traditionalist Family should be welcoming to a Catholic Biden supporter?  How does that conversation go around the dinner table, when they mention their brother is marrying his boyfriend?  Do we say congratulations?

The only people who describe Traditionalists as mean are modernists and CINOs who support sodomy, fornication, adultery, idolatry.  Conservatives of other religions tend to like trads in my experience as they see we have large families.

Most non-Catholics don't even know that there are Traditionalist Catholics.  So they can't have any views about them.

It is exclusively modernists and less Conservative cliques of Trad in that describe those they deal with as uncharitable.

Obviously if everyone is going to Heaven anyway there is no need to be uncharitable.  Sin does not really matter.  So it is easy for such people to be nice to everyone.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 04:34:21 AM by MaximGun »
 

Offline clau clau

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2021, 05:12:25 AM »
I'll just leave this here ...

Would you like to shake hands with Pope 1 or Pope 2 -
 me (inspired by Dr Seuss) see: https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/Thing_One_and_Thing_Two

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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2021, 05:17:50 AM »
We do want 50s Catholicism, it is true.

1850s.

1650s with a jubé screen.

Maybe Barney the dinosaur for Pope. He sounds nicer than Frank.
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Offline Christina_S

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2021, 12:59:23 PM »
The Barron bible is keenly priced, but I'd be wary of its commentary. We all hope hell is empty, but Barron espouses his hope in a way that he thinks it likely all are eventually saved. It doesn't matter if Origen said so. I take the fearsome words of many saints over the comfy idea of apokatastasis. I perhaps just see Barron as someone utterly perplexed. The landscape of 'St John Paul the Great' has vanished, and is a very small space now. Barron seems to be casting around for a comfortable niche, and all those trads are harshing his buzz. Just becoming an eloquent spokesman for Francis and his henchmen would probably be miserable for him.
Gosh, yes. I'm so glad the "St. John Paul tHe GrEaT" thing has died down. Even when I was just a run-of-the-mill conservative NO attendee, I thought it was ridiculous to call him that within a decade of his passing.

Concerning the Word on Fire Bible, I've only seen pictures, but if I had to guess, the beauty of the design fascinates people. Barron is quite Balthasarian in his theology and thinks you can get to Truth through Beauty consistently. The other aspect is the luxurious quality that it boasts:
Quote
LEATHER
The leather edition of The Word on Fire Bible features a top grain leather produced in Eppertshausen, Germany, along with the gold foil debossed design. The edges of the book block are finished with brilliant gold foil.
HARDCOVER
The hardcover edition of The Word on Fire Bible is covered in a rich black cloth manufactured by Italian-based Manifattura Del Seveso. It is beautiful, naturally textured, ruggedly durable, and will resist fading over time. The artwork on the cover and spine is debossed in gold foil.
PAPERBACK
The paperback edition features a scuff-free matte lamination for longevity and the same gold foil-stamped design. This finish will resist fingerprinting and will increase durability.
Even a trad might go for that. I found the selection of people that were quoted to be telling:
Quote
You'll also find commentary by more recent saints and spiritual masters. These include people like St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis de Sales, G.K. Chesterton, Fulton Sheen, Flannery O'Connor, and each of the last three popes: St. John Paul II, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis.
With all due respect, what is O'Connor doing in that line-up? Also, picking and choosing the popes much?
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Bishop Barron at it again
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2021, 02:53:21 PM »
The Barron bible is keenly priced, but I'd be wary of its commentary. We all hope hell is empty, but Barron espouses his hope in a way that he thinks it likely all are eventually saved. It doesn't matter if Origen said so. I take the fearsome words of many saints over the comfy idea of apokatastasis. I perhaps just see Barron as someone utterly perplexed. The landscape of 'St John Paul the Great' has vanished, and is a very small space now. Barron seems to be casting around for a comfortable niche, and all those trads are harshing his buzz. Just becoming an eloquent spokesman for Francis and his henchmen would probably be miserable for him.
Gosh, yes. I'm so glad the "St. John Paul tHe GrEaT" thing has died down. Even when I was just a run-of-the-mill conservative NO attendee, I thought it was ridiculous to call him that within a decade of his passing.

Concerning the Word on Fire Bible, I've only seen pictures, but if I had to guess, the beauty of the design fascinates people. Barron is quite Balthasarian in his theology and thinks you can get to Truth through Beauty consistently. The other aspect is the luxurious quality that it boasts:
Quote
LEATHER
The leather edition of The Word on Fire Bible features a top grain leather produced in Eppertshausen, Germany, along with the gold foil debossed design. The edges of the book block are finished with brilliant gold foil.
HARDCOVER
The hardcover edition of The Word on Fire Bible is covered in a rich black cloth manufactured by Italian-based Manifattura Del Seveso. It is beautiful, naturally textured, ruggedly durable, and will resist fading over time. The artwork on the cover and spine is debossed in gold foil.
PAPERBACK
The paperback edition features a scuff-free matte lamination for longevity and the same gold foil-stamped design. This finish will resist fingerprinting and will increase durability.
Even a trad might go for that. I found the selection of people that were quoted to be telling:
Quote
You'll also find commentary by more recent saints and spiritual masters. These include people like St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis de Sales, G.K. Chesterton, Fulton Sheen, Flannery O'Connor, and each of the last three popes: St. John Paul II, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis.
With all due respect, what is O'Connor doing in that line-up? Also, picking and choosing the popes much?

In respect of Flannery O'Connor (copied from the Wikipedia article): O'Connor was a devout Catholic. From 1956 through 1964, she wrote more than one hundred book reviews for two Catholic diocesan newspapers in Georgia: The Bulletin and The Southern Cross.[34] According to fellow reviewer Joey Zuber, the wide range of books she chose to review demonstrated that she was profoundly intellectual.[35][page needed] Her reviews consistently confronted theological and ethical themes in books written by the most serious and demanding theologians of her time.[36] Professor of English Carter Martin, an authority on O'Connor's writings, notes simply that her "book reviews are at one with her religious life."

It doesn't seem a bad idea to draw on this writer, who is surely lesser noticed as a Catholic writer than GK Chesterson.

It is notable that Conciliar writers seem usually allergic to quoting before V2, but this seems like a measure of profound insecurity. Bp Barron probably is well aware of the sheer averageness of the V2 epoch, how weak and sickly it is, and it must torment him.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 02:56:35 PM by Prayerful »
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