Author Topic: UCA News: Why Pope Francis is pushing for a Universal Basic Income (UBI).  (Read 1978 times)

Offline Xavier

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Pope Francis is in favor of UBI. From: https://www.ucanews.com/news/why-pope-francis-is-pushing-for-universal-basic-income/

What do you all think of UBI, could it work? I've long felt some kind of "quasi-UBI", for some section of the lower half of the population, could be useful. Most of us on this forum are probably in the "upper-50%", monetarily speaking, wherever we live? Would we be ok with a Q-UBI for the bottom half, even though it wouldn't help us personally, and probably even hurt us a little, but make society better off?

The writer of this article is Indian, and he mentions one Q-UBI scheme in the Indian context, proposed by PM candidate Rahul Gandhi.  This earlier article also proposed one simple form of Q-UBI, and a simple way it could be paid for: "The Union Budget for 2020 will be presented soon. Instituting a social dividend of at least Rs 1000 per month for the 40% poorest families in our country would be a huge step forward toward almost eliminating poverty. GST collection for January alone would almost pay for it [40% of 25 Crore Households in India*1000=10,000 Crore p.m=1.2 lakh Crore per annum. GST collection was 1.15 lakh Crore. It is certainly do-able]" Link Rs 1000 in dollar terms is barely $14-15. 40% of India's 1.25 billion population=500 million people would be helped by such a Quasi-UBI. It's up to each country individually to design what works best for them, but imo we'll see more of this in this decade.

Thoughts from people here? God Bless.

Article: "Workers across the world are looking forward to the day capitalism takes the road of human equity with universal basic income (UBI), which would give them much-needed succor after the trial by fire of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Pope Francis is among the world’s economists, thinkers and billionaires who support UBI as a way of altering the relationship between capital and labor, the two main pillars of the laissez-faire system that wants to keep the government outside all capitalist activities.

The relation between capital and labor cannot be the same once UBI becomes a policy, promising every adult — rich and poor, working and non-working — a regular income from the state.

High-profile policymakers have concluded that after disruptive digital technologies become part of and parcel of social life in the new norm of the post-Covid-19 world, privatization of profit and socialization of loss will not go in tandem in the long run.

In the coming years, artificial intelligence, robotics and automation will render the toiling human capital redundant worldwide.

Cars and trucks without drivers will reduce millions of jobs in transportation, while national armies will be replaced by a sea of autonomous drones and, eventually, actors will be shown the door and movie production will thrive without much human labor.

By 2030, the talk of the town will be the automation of operations.

Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, among the elites of the world, Milton Friedman and Thomas Paine, among thinkers, and Pope Francis, among spiritual leaders, have put their trust in UBI.

Other fans of UBI include Nobel economics laureates Peter Diamond and Christopher Pissarides, tech czars like Mark Zuckerberg and billionaire oligarchs like Elon Musk.

In his recently published book, the pope renewed his pledge to UBI after the pandemic exacerbated the rift between people and technology and between the haves and the have-nots.

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In Let Us Dream: The Path to a Better Future, co-written with Briton Austen Ivereigh, Pope Francis strongly advocates a basic income.

“The UBI could reshape relations in the labor market, guaranteeing people the dignity of refusing employment terms that trap them in poverty,” Pope Francis wrote.

Those who cite UBI as the key catalyst to the technology-driven transition go to the extent of saying that if the top 1,000 transnational companies are fairly taxed, a modest UBI for people across the world is a possibility.

In Western cities where UBI has successfully been implemented, the working population has welcomed the modern version of England’s Poor Law.

They see UBI paving the way for the abolition of “wage slavery” to which the working professionals are unknowingly tied to.

Now that the pandemic has disrupted the global economy, UBI has returned from the fringes to the mainstream.

Pope Francis is actively pushing it because the poor are at the center of his pontificate. For him, a Catholic Church that does not speak and act for the poor of the world is no church at all.

Social protection in Asia

Decades of unequal economic growth, marked by severe exploitation, recurring financial crises and the launch of disruptive digital technologies and ecological disasters, have exhausted the Asian workforce as their bargaining power has diminished.

Due to this, Asia perennially remains the hub for cheap labor for the world economy. The pandemic has added salt to these wounds.

Experts say that welfare schemes and subsidies rolled out by Asian governments can be converted into UBI. According to them, these sops currently end up in the hands of the relatively rich or are pilfered by middlemen.

They put forth UBI as an effective poverty-eradication tool in Asia, where about 60 percent of inhabitants do not fall under any form of social protection.

Since the pandemic has further drained their resources, the economic toll is expected to be astronomically high in post-pandemic Asia.

According to the World Bank, over 20 million people in Asia have been pushed into poverty and 100 million dislocated due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

The Human Development Index measuring income, health and education has reached an all-time low in Asia since records began in 1990.

According to the United Nations Development Programme, 80 percent of students in Asia do not have access to education as a result of the pandemic.

While mooting UBI for Asia as a panacea, a few tips can be obtained from Spain, which has launched the largest test yet of UBI.

On June 15 last year, hit by the coronavirus crisis and its economic fallout, the EU member state offered monthly payments of up to €1,015 (US$1,145) to Spain's 850,000 poorest households. It will cost the state exchequer at least €3 billion per year.

Before the Spanish rollout, the biggest trial was done in Kenya, which allocated 2,250 Kenyan shillings ($21) to 2,100 adults.

Many nations have experimented with UBI. But the schemes were limited to a few thousands of people. Scotland and Canada are mulling the possibility of UBI to tide over hardships caused by the pandemic.

It is not that UBI is a novel concept in Asia. UBI has already gained momentum in South Korea and has become a major poll plank among politicians.

Championed first by Gyeonggi province governor and presidential hopeful Lee Jae-Myung, UBI was quickly hijacked by presidential contenders from all sides.

India tried UBI in small projects with encouraging results in the central state of Madhya Pradesh. A limited version of UBI came up in India when main opposition leader Rahul Gandhi pledged to create "the world's largest minimum income scheme" if his party triumphed in elections.

Gandhi promised the poorest 20 percent of households 72,000 rupees ($1,050) per year as part of the proposed Nyay (justice) scheme.

The post-pandemic world calls for a new social contract to rebalance deep economic inequalities and build a sustainable future across societies.

For the upcoming fourth industrial revolution to take root in the largest continent, which is home to 60 percent of humanity, those rendered jobless by disrupting technologies would have to be given an economic chance to get on with their lives.

With the rollout of UBI worldwide, “human capitalism” that is inclusive of the poor will take birth in the world."

To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

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Online Melkor

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It just confirms how much of a socialist Bergoglio truly is. It seems to further the agenda of one world government.
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Offline TradGranny

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It just confirms how much of a socialist Bergoglio truly is. It seems to further the agenda of one world government.

He's a Freemasonic Satanic Communist at heart, not a "socialist".
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Offline MaximGun

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You are an Indian.  It is hard for you to understand the problems this would cause in a western economy where those who would receive that income would become a class of idle drones shoring up the Marxist Globalist policies of the elite.  People don't bite the hand that feeds them.

Very quickly UBI would turn into a demand that people limited their families for "the good of the planet".

The demands would keep coming.  UBI is the last door to slavery.
 
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Offline diaduit

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It is the worst idea ever.

We have a generous social welfare system in Ireland, you could literally raise a large family on SW.  What happens then is there is no incentive to improve yourself or your situation.  Kills any sort of self worth (addiction problems follow this type of life) and raises generations of entitled brats who ring their local authority reps to replace a light bulb or a doorbell.

UBI is coming and we have a precursor called the PUP which is the covid payment of €350 pw (in the cities this is poor money but outside of that, you could live with basics).  The one consolation of UBI is I'll will laugh my arse off at those teachers and public servants who embraced the covid scam coz they were getting paid anyway and loved the time at home with their garden projects and house renovations...they're in for a massive shock.
When are teachers going to realise they're jobs are for the chop, one teacher can teach 200 students online instead of 30 in person...thats one cull I am looking forward to.
 
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Offline Innocent Smith

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It is the worst idea ever.

We have a generous social welfare system in Ireland, you could literally raise a large family on SW.  What happens then is there is no incentive to improve yourself or your situation.  Kills any sort of self worth (addiction problems follow this type of life) and raises generations of entitled brats who ring their local authority reps to replace a light bulb or a doorbell.

UBI is coming and we have a precursor called the PUP which is the covid payment of €350 pw (in the cities this is poor money but outside of that, you could live with basics).  The one consolation of UBI is I'll will laugh my arse off at those teachers and public servants who embraced the covid scam coz they were getting paid anyway and loved the time at home with their garden projects and house renovations...they're in for a massive shock.
When are teachers going to realise they're jobs are for the chop, one teacher can teach 200 students online instead of 30 in person...thats one cull I am looking forward to.

I could almost see one teacher per grade to teach the entire country vis a vis youtube.  Then you could have your administrators for local tracking.  Say one per 500 E-Learners. 

I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.
 

Offline Innocent Smith

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You are an Indian.  It is hard for you to understand the problems this would cause in a western economy where those who would receive that income would become a class of idle drones shoring up the Marxist Globalist policies of the elite.  People don't bite the hand that feeds them.

Very quickly UBI would turn into a demand that people limited their families for "the good of the planet".

The demands would keep coming.  UBI is the last door to slavery.

UBI would amount to an instant prison system in which the receiver of funds participates in his voluntary slavery.  These people don't even make for friendly shoppers as they can't enjoy that experience because they didn't earn the money through their own labor. 

In other words, we might soon see a country with 50% working and 50% on the dole.  It won't be pretty. 
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Offline MaximGun

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I predict there will be a huge raise in taxes to just pay for the scamdemic and the resulting unemployment.

I am going to consider and carefully observe for a black market side hustle that earns money in cash so I don't have to pay tax on that income.

Any dollars you earn in 2023 could well be taxed at 50%.  Usually that creates the right conditions for a black market.

Not much point in earning 100,000 if 50,000 is taken out of your paycheck.  Better to earn 40,000 on the side and claim poverty and get what is going for free .

You will have an easier life, more free time and you will be in control.  I am damned if I am going to support a globalist government with my taxes.
 

Offline MaximGun

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We have a generous social welfare system in Ireland, you could literally raise a large family on SW.  What happens then is there is no incentive to improve yourself or your situation.  Kills any sort of self worth (addiction problems follow this type of life) and raises generations of entitled brats who ring their local authority reps to replace a light bulb or a doorbell.

I have seen that near to me in social housing.  Older generation 60 or more years old rent but improve their rented homes on their own dime and initiative.  Younger generation 40 years old and less (commonly single mother living with new boyfriend) don't even remove leaves from their gutter, it overflows down the wall, then they complain that they have damp and mould in the house.  Repairmen eventually show up.

It is a sickening attitude that you see in socialist and former socialist countries.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Yes, I am an Indian. So my suggestions - which btw are for Q-UBI not full UBI - would necessarily be tailored to the Indian context. I understand some Western conservative writers are concerned about it, and I understand their concerns, but I think it could work in India. Many other Indians feel the same. India has made some progress in recent decades in fighting poverty, but there is still much work to do. PM Candidate Gandhi also suggested a limited UBI, for the poorest 20% of the population. An already existing GST Tax for about 3 months would completely cover that. It's also likely some currently existing programs, such as MSP for farmers, could be done away with if Q-UBI was implemented.

I worked in Bank of New York for a while, so I have some familiarity with the West, but of course not as much as a Westerner would have. It may not work in western countries, I don't know. If there already are sufficient welfare programs that ensure everyone has enough to eat and an opportunity to rise, that may be enough. After the needlessly extended lockdowns, the US government gave out 1000s of dollars of stimulus checks to everyone. If things go back slightly to normal, a Q-UBI would work like that, but only to a targeted few.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 05:48:38 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline MaximGun

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Indians are a very different breed to Europeans.

When they arrive in the UK they typically work very hard in the first and second generation.  My doctor is an Indian, the shopkeepers are often Indian.  The best students at schools tend to have a higher number of Indians.

I cannot think of a single Hindu or Indian Christian I know who is not reasonably successful in the UK and none are on welfare.

Muslims very often DO go on the dole and exploit the welfare system.  Non Muslim Indians almost never.

Here is the problem with welfare and UBI.  Let's give an example of a traditionalist Catholic I know in the UK.  Once you are on it, between the free dental, free healthcare, school meals free for your children, rental or mortgage interest paid off for you, welfare money, child tax credits, help getting white goods like washing machines, emergency loans you can end up on an income of $40,000 per year equivalent to earning the money.

But you have 40 hours per week or more to then work, fix up your home, make your garden nice and do all of the jobs that a person earning $60,000 a year does not have time for.  They take their car for a $500 service and oil change, you service your own car for $95.  So the $405 the spent (they had to earn $600) for is dead time.

Thus you create a income chasm where it is not worth you taking any job that pays less than $30,000 more than you get on benefits, because you lose those benefits the moment you get a full time job.

You have 40 hours to jump on all of the best deals from Freecycle and furnish you house for nothing other than the petrol money to pick things up.  People give away, toasters, juice extractor machines, beds, mattress, wardrobes, curtains, paint, lawnmowers, just about everything you could need.  Spend your morning picking these up from middle class housewives for free and you can see what you don't want on ebay.

If a person was motivated to work 6 hours per day at their side hustle and fixing their house and landscaping their garden then could invite their neighbour making $90k per year over and he would wonder why his house and garden were not so tidy and why his furniture looked more worn out.

Obviously a lot of welfare recipients are lazy gits and they don't make the effort, so their homes and gardens look like a pigsty.  But those who do have a cushy life.

Those 40 hours a week (excluding the commute) you can use for leisure, fitness, cooking healthy food, gardening, side-hustle for cash really are worth an unmeasurable value.

And that is why UBI would not work.


But if they bring it in, probably the smartest thing to do if you are not in the top 5% of wage earners is go on it and side-hustle as much as you are able.  Earn what you can in cash and services in kind and milk it for as long as possible.  You are really kind of dumb if you slave in a job that a computer (or an Indian/Chinaman) will take over in 10 years, just to pay the taxes to fund the UBI.

You should never fund your own enslavement.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 07:04:57 AM by MaximGun »
 
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Offline mikemac

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The problem with universal basic income according to the Great Reset is that UBI is just the start of the process.  The next stage is to eliminate all ownership of property.  This would clearly make it a communist system.

By itself I don't think UBI is that bad if everyone, rich and poor get it.  It would eliminate welfare and the social contract.  As a percentage of the gross domestic product of the country the UBI would increase or decrease depending on the gross domestic product.  As long as people would still be able to earn a living on top of the UBI and own homes and property there would be an incentive for everyone to work for additional income and to increase the gross domestic product of the country.  This may even eliminate people working under the table, seeing income on the books would increase the gross domestic product of the country thus increasing the UBI; although there may or may not have to be a way put in place to curtail people working under the table.  Social Credit doesn't call this UBI, it calls it a Social Dividend because it is derived from a percentage of the country's gross domestic product.  Social Credit is the application of the Social Doctrine of the Church.

https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/social-credit/category/in-this-age-of-plenty
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Offline MaximGun

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Without means of production you will never be able to get asset rich. Means of production will be near impossible to acquire because of economic barrier to entry.  Socialism always fails everywhere it is tried.
 
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Offline Vincentus Ioannes

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Not really sure where you’re going to find the money to give everyone free income forever.
 
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Offline MaximGun

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The concept is that those owning the giant robot factories like Amazon and Google will fund all of this.

Like the movie Soyent Green.