Author Topic: So you wanna code?  (Read 356 times)

Offline Heinrich

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So you wanna code?
« on: February 16, 2021, 11:41:12 AM »
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline ralfy

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2021, 11:05:56 PM »
Those wages are significantly high in contrast to those of most countries for the same type of work and given a cost of living that's not that high.
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2021, 01:10:31 AM »
Those wages are significantly high in contrast to those of most countries for the same type of work and given a cost of living that's not that high.

Which is the point. H1B visas are the goal. Get Rajnith from the Mumbai call center for pennies on the dollar, abuse him and his, ..., profit.
 

Offline Lynne

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2021, 08:34:06 AM »
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2021, 10:19:27 AM »
I don't know who this guy is, but he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.

I think the biggest point that he's missing is the possibility of career advancement and job security. Usually if you're looking for an entry-level "coding" job, it's not just because you need a job in order to pay the rent, but because you're somebody who is looking specifically to get into software development, and who is planning on using the entry-level "coding" job in order to make his way into the industry, presumably with the intention of eventually attaining a better (and higher-paying) job such as senior developer or lead developer (ideally with a company that isn't foreseeably going to go out of business any time soon). It makes little to no sense to take a $15 per hour pizza delivery job over a lower-paying $8 per hour "coding" job if your intention is to work in software development, since the pizza delivery job does not lead to a job in software development. (It especially doesn't make sense in this day and age, when we can see from the trajectory that pizza delivery jobs are gradually being replaced by freelancers working through GrubHub, and even public schools have moved online and if they keep it up might do away with in-person entirely. Not only will you be working a job that doesn't lead anywhere, but you'll be working a job that might not even exist a few years down the road.)

Second, "entry-level" in the development industry oftentimes requires a related bachelor's degree and usually requires two to three years of experience. And it's not all that out of the ordinary that an "entry-level" job would require a broad skillset (we're talking "jack of all trades" sort of skills. You'd need to know the back-end programming, the front-end programming, the UI design, the UX, etc. You don't need to be an expert in all these areas, but you do need competency). So his criticism on those two points is unwarranted. He presents it as if what these companies are asking for is unrealistic or laughable, when it's actually just the nature of an entry-level job in this particular industry (and especially when it's a small company who doesn't have the budget to hire separate entry-level developers for each specific job or task).

Third, the reason for the low wage is not because companies are trying to rip off their employees (although that might be part of it) but it's obviously a matter of supply and demand (which he dismisses right off the bat for no apparent reason). A "coding" job, taken in itself, is similar to pizza delivery and school bus driving, in that none of these jobs are the sorts of jobs that require a particularly exceptional level of skill. Anybody with the right training can do it, and a ton of people out there have the training. This means that there are likely far more applicants than there are jobs. And this is especially true in cases when the "coding" job can be done remotely, since there is then no geographic factor limiting the number of applicants. But any time there are more applicants than jobs, wages go down. Because why pay somebody more when you can pay an equally-qualified person less? I am also skeptical with regard to his claim that the average wage for a "coding" job is in fact lower than the average wage of the pizza delivery job / school bus driver job. But even granting this, it kind of makes sense, since, again, it's a matter of supply and demand. "Coding" jobs are generally more pleasant / more relaxing / more desirable than pizza delivery or school bus driving jobs, (and, unlike driving, "coding" can even sometimes be done remotely,) so there are bound to be more applicants, whereas pizza companies / bus companies, at least in certain locations, might conceivably have a shortage of applicants and may need to pay a higher wage to make up for it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 12:57:27 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2021, 08:39:18 AM »
Daniel, have you found a career yet?

Also, about two years ago, to make a little flash cash, I delivered part time for Pizza Hut in Colorado Springs. Averaged 23/hr. Then again, a 1br, 1ba in that neighborhood is ~1,800 a month.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline ralfy

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2021, 08:34:11 AM »
Which is the point. H1B visas are the goal. Get Rajnith from the Mumbai call center for pennies on the dollar, abuse him and his, ..., profit.

Even those low wages are high. Worldwide, 71 pct of human beings live on less than $10 a day.
 

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2021, 11:30:51 AM »
Which is the point. H1B visas are the goal. Get Rajnith from the Mumbai call center for pennies on the dollar, abuse him and his, ..., profit.

Even those low wages are high. Worldwide, 71 pct of human beings live on less than $10 a day.

And if those 71% were transported to the US (ya know, on an H1B visa like I referenced), they would not be able to survive on the same amount they make in the places they are from where they could.

Take, for example, Denver. Let's say said programmer got a job at $15/hr. Assuming a typical work year of 2080 hours they make 31,200 gross pay.

Quote
Tax Type   Marginal Tax Rate   Effective Tax Rate   2020 Taxes*
Federal   12.00%   6.60%   $2,059
FICA   7.65%   7.65%   $2,387
State   4.63%   2.79%   $870
Local   0.00%   0.00%   $0
Total Income Taxes      17.04%   $5,316
Income After Taxes         $25,884
Retirement Contributions         $0
Take-Home Pay         $25,884
- https://smartasset.com/taxes/colorado-tax-calculator

So monthly take home is: 2153.66 ASSUMING no other stuff taken out (insurance, 401k, etc.). That stuff starts to get expensive at many companies.

An average 1 bedroom apartment in Denver is about 1000-1200 per month. So now at the low end, BEFORE UTILITIES, we are down to 1153/mo.

Then there's either the cost of transportation (car), maintenance, gas, etc., which would vary, but let's call that $300/mo for the low end, OR, if you are close enough to do so in Denver one can use the lightrail system - that's $114/mo for a pass. So we are at 853/1039 (lightrail). Then there's utilities. Probably an easy $100/mo in an apartment, so 753/939 left.

Now there's food: even with eating the most basic of punjabi cuisine, one is probably spending about $150-200/mo for food in that area. So now we are at 603 left.

Add in all the other stuff we left out, and the 603 is jumping down to probably 200-400 easily. Then Rajnith gets injured because he doesn't pay attention when walking and slips on ice, breaks his leg, and now has to pay his portion of insurance costs, is out time on work and if lucky will get either short term disability or unemployment. etc.

15/hour is pretty much hand to mouth in a place like Denver, especially for a single person.

For a married person with a wife and kids at home, it's downright poverty. Poverty, for a skill set which is IN DEMAND and HARD TO ENTER. Imagine that.
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2021, 12:08:55 PM »
1000 - 1200 seems a bit low for the D.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2021, 01:31:07 PM »
1000 - 1200 seems a bit low for the D.

Looking at Craigslist, depending on the area, a 1 Bedroom is going for around 1000-1200. Some are higher, but they're not in "Why does this building smell like curry and B.O.?" neighborhoods.
 
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Offline ralfy

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2021, 03:48:11 AM »

And if those 71% were transported to the US (ya know, on an H1B visa like I referenced), they would not be able to survive on the same amount they make in the places they are from where they could.

Take, for example, Denver. Let's say said programmer got a job at $15/hr. Assuming a typical work year of 2080 hours they make 31,200 gross pay.

Quote
Tax Type   Marginal Tax Rate   Effective Tax Rate   2020 Taxes*
Federal   12.00%   6.60%   $2,059
FICA   7.65%   7.65%   $2,387
State   4.63%   2.79%   $870
Local   0.00%   0.00%   $0
Total Income Taxes      17.04%   $5,316
Income After Taxes         $25,884
Retirement Contributions         $0
Take-Home Pay         $25,884
- https://smartasset.com/taxes/colorado-tax-calculator

So monthly take home is: 2153.66 ASSUMING no other stuff taken out (insurance, 401k, etc.). That stuff starts to get expensive at many companies.

An average 1 bedroom apartment in Denver is about 1000-1200 per month. So now at the low end, BEFORE UTILITIES, we are down to 1153/mo.

Then there's either the cost of transportation (car), maintenance, gas, etc., which would vary, but let's call that $300/mo for the low end, OR, if you are close enough to do so in Denver one can use the lightrail system - that's $114/mo for a pass. So we are at 853/1039 (lightrail). Then there's utilities. Probably an easy $100/mo in an apartment, so 753/939 left.

Now there's food: even with eating the most basic of punjabi cuisine, one is probably spending about $150-200/mo for food in that area. So now we are at 603 left.

Add in all the other stuff we left out, and the 603 is jumping down to probably 200-400 easily. Then Rajnith gets injured because he doesn't pay attention when walking and slips on ice, breaks his leg, and now has to pay his portion of insurance costs, is out time on work and if lucky will get either short term disability or unemployment. etc.

15/hour is pretty much hand to mouth in a place like Denver, especially for a single person.

For a married person with a wife and kids at home, it's downright poverty. Poverty, for a skill set which is IN DEMAND and HARD TO ENTER. Imagine that.

You can also use sites like Numbeo. For example,

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Philippines&displayCurrency=USD

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States

That is, the cost of living in the U.S. is 73 pct higher than in the Philippines, and rent almost 300 pct more.

The min. wage in the U.S. is around $8 an hour. In the Philippines, it's at most $1.25 an hour.

The ave. wage (after tax) in the U.S. is around $3,000 a month. In the Philippines, it's $300.

In short, the cost of living in the U.S. is almost twice that of the Philippines, and the rent three times more, but the min. wage in the U.S. almost eight times more, and the ave. wage ten times more.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 03:50:54 AM by ralfy »
 

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2021, 11:14:31 AM »

And if those 71% were transported to the US (ya know, on an H1B visa like I referenced), they would not be able to survive on the same amount they make in the places they are from where they could.

Take, for example, Denver. Let's say said programmer got a job at $15/hr. Assuming a typical work year of 2080 hours they make 31,200 gross pay.

Quote
Tax Type   Marginal Tax Rate   Effective Tax Rate   2020 Taxes*
Federal   12.00%   6.60%   $2,059
FICA   7.65%   7.65%   $2,387
State   4.63%   2.79%   $870
Local   0.00%   0.00%   $0
Total Income Taxes      17.04%   $5,316
Income After Taxes         $25,884
Retirement Contributions         $0
Take-Home Pay         $25,884
- https://smartasset.com/taxes/colorado-tax-calculator

So monthly take home is: 2153.66 ASSUMING no other stuff taken out (insurance, 401k, etc.). That stuff starts to get expensive at many companies.

An average 1 bedroom apartment in Denver is about 1000-1200 per month. So now at the low end, BEFORE UTILITIES, we are down to 1153/mo.

Then there's either the cost of transportation (car), maintenance, gas, etc., which would vary, but let's call that $300/mo for the low end, OR, if you are close enough to do so in Denver one can use the lightrail system - that's $114/mo for a pass. So we are at 853/1039 (lightrail). Then there's utilities. Probably an easy $100/mo in an apartment, so 753/939 left.

Now there's food: even with eating the most basic of punjabi cuisine, one is probably spending about $150-200/mo for food in that area. So now we are at 603 left.

Add in all the other stuff we left out, and the 603 is jumping down to probably 200-400 easily. Then Rajnith gets injured because he doesn't pay attention when walking and slips on ice, breaks his leg, and now has to pay his portion of insurance costs, is out time on work and if lucky will get either short term disability or unemployment. etc.

15/hour is pretty much hand to mouth in a place like Denver, especially for a single person.

For a married person with a wife and kids at home, it's downright poverty. Poverty, for a skill set which is IN DEMAND and HARD TO ENTER. Imagine that.

You can also use sites like Numbeo. For example,

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Philippines&displayCurrency=USD

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States

That is, the cost of living in the U.S. is 73 pct higher than in the Philippines, and rent almost 300 pct more.

The min. wage in the U.S. is around $8 an hour. In the Philippines, it's at most $1.25 an hour.

The ave. wage (after tax) in the U.S. is around $3,000 a month. In the Philippines, it's $300.

In short, the cost of living in the U.S. is almost twice that of the Philippines, and the rent three times more, but the min. wage in the U.S. almost eight times more, and the ave. wage ten times more.

Comparative numbers are useless without other things like taxation, etc.

Mere cost of living doesn't address things like taxation, 401k contributions, medical insurance, etc.

Moreover, averages don't reflect the reality of particular sectors. Averages are largely useless.
 

Offline ralfy

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2021, 09:27:34 PM »

And if those 71% were transported to the US (ya know, on an H1B visa like I referenced), they would not be able to survive on the same amount they make in the places they are from where they could.

Take, for example, Denver. Let's say said programmer got a job at $15/hr. Assuming a typical work year of 2080 hours they make 31,200 gross pay.

Quote
Tax Type   Marginal Tax Rate   Effective Tax Rate   2020 Taxes*
Federal   12.00%   6.60%   $2,059
FICA   7.65%   7.65%   $2,387
State   4.63%   2.79%   $870
Local   0.00%   0.00%   $0
Total Income Taxes      17.04%   $5,316
Income After Taxes         $25,884
Retirement Contributions         $0
Take-Home Pay         $25,884
- https://smartasset.com/taxes/colorado-tax-calculator

So monthly take home is: 2153.66 ASSUMING no other stuff taken out (insurance, 401k, etc.). That stuff starts to get expensive at many companies.

An average 1 bedroom apartment in Denver is about 1000-1200 per month. So now at the low end, BEFORE UTILITIES, we are down to 1153/mo.

Then there's either the cost of transportation (car), maintenance, gas, etc., which would vary, but let's call that $300/mo for the low end, OR, if you are close enough to do so in Denver one can use the lightrail system - that's $114/mo for a pass. So we are at 853/1039 (lightrail). Then there's utilities. Probably an easy $100/mo in an apartment, so 753/939 left.

Now there's food: even with eating the most basic of punjabi cuisine, one is probably spending about $150-200/mo for food in that area. So now we are at 603 left.

Add in all the other stuff we left out, and the 603 is jumping down to probably 200-400 easily. Then Rajnith gets injured because he doesn't pay attention when walking and slips on ice, breaks his leg, and now has to pay his portion of insurance costs, is out time on work and if lucky will get either short term disability or unemployment. etc.

15/hour is pretty much hand to mouth in a place like Denver, especially for a single person.

For a married person with a wife and kids at home, it's downright poverty. Poverty, for a skill set which is IN DEMAND and HARD TO ENTER. Imagine that.

You can also use sites like Numbeo. For example,

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Philippines&displayCurrency=USD

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=United+States

That is, the cost of living in the U.S. is 73 pct higher than in the Philippines, and rent almost 300 pct more.

The min. wage in the U.S. is around $8 an hour. In the Philippines, it's at most $1.25 an hour.

The ave. wage (after tax) in the U.S. is around $3,000 a month. In the Philippines, it's $300.

In short, the cost of living in the U.S. is almost twice that of the Philippines, and the rent three times more, but the min. wage in the U.S. almost eight times more, and the ave. wage ten times more.

Comparative numbers are useless without other things like taxation, etc.

Mere cost of living doesn't address things like taxation, 401k contributions, medical insurance, etc.

Moreover, averages don't reflect the reality of particular sectors. Averages are largely useless.

The ave. costs are based on store prices, which means they should include any sales taxes, and the ave. wages given are net salaries (after tax).



 

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2021, 01:06:12 AM »
Ralfy, there are holes in your argument.



Where are you from? What is your professional experience? What’s your personal experience with American wages and cost of living (and where?)?

 

Offline ralfy

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Re: So you wanna code?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2021, 11:00:14 PM »
Ralfy, there are holes in your argument.



Where are you from? What is your professional experience? What’s your personal experience with American wages and cost of living (and where?)?

I really don't care for 4chan antics (e.g., posting inane memes, as if those bolster one's arguments), making unsubstantiated claims (e.g., arguing that there are holes in an argument without explaining what they are), or asking for personal details (as if that changes what's seen in any online evidence presented, or even matter in a site where no real identities are posted, and for which any personal background info can be verified), but I did not expect those illogical views in this forum, unless I'm overestimating the quality of the latter.

In which case, why not explain those holes are, and provide what you think are the correct data? Keep in mind, though, that the site gave national averages, so that won't obviously gel with any local data.
 
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