Author Topic: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?  (Read 340 times)

Offline Daniel

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Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« on: January 12, 2021, 08:16:51 AM »
I just moved to a place not of my choosing.

- The nearest TLM is practically 2 hours away, and it's of dubious validity.
- The nearest eastern rite parish is also about 2 hours away, and I think it's valid but I've been there and it seems pretty liberal.
- There are plenty of NO parishes nearby, all of which are of dubious validity.
- There might be a Resistance TLM maybe 2 and a half hours away, of non-dubious validity, but I am not entirely sure if the Resistance is still in that area or how frequently the priest says Mass (I'd have to contact the coordinator).

- My dad (not a Catholic) tells me that he does not want me to be using a lot of gas or putting a lot of mileage on my car going to Sunday Mass. I do not recall him ever commanding me not to do it, but he has expressed that he doesn't want me doing it.

- The person who pays for my gas also tells me that he does not want me using a lot of gas going to Sunday Mass. I do not recall if he ever said I'm not allowed to use the money to pay for gas to get to Sunday Mass, but he has expressed that he doesn't want me to.
- I cannot use my own money, as I am currently in debt and am bound to make restitution, which (I assume) means I can't spend my money on anything else until the debt is paid off. And the debt won't foreseeably be paid off for another few years.

- I don't know what canon law says about Mass attendance, but I've heard that if you live more than 1 hour away then you don't have to go.
- However, a FSSP priest says that if you live within 1 hour of a NO parish, you are required to attend the NOM.
- Yet one Resistance priest (in an online video) said that you must not go to the NOM (it wouldn't count anyway), and he also said that the 1-hour rule is no longer applicable since travel is now a lot easier than when the law was written. (He basically says that some people don't mind driving 3 or 4 hours to get to a sports game, so everybody is required to drive much more than 1 hour to get to Sunday Mass.)

- Additionally, all of the NOMs in the area do CITH. So if the Mass does happen to be valid, I don't see how anyone could attend the NOM without at least risking stepping on Host fragments
- The nearest TLM is a diocesan TLM, so the chapel is used for both NOM and TLM. And the NOM has CITH. So, again, I don't see how anyone could attend the TLM there without at least risking stepping on Host fragments


Anyone have any idea what I should do in this situation in order not to violate the third, fourth, and seventh commandments, and not to violate canon law, and not to otherwise sin against God? It seems all of my options involve at least potentially breaking some kind of rule. (This past Sunday I attended Mass at the eastern rite parish 2 hours away, hoping that I was not violating the fourth or seventh commandment in doing so, but I really had no idea if I was.)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 04:52:29 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2021, 08:29:37 AM »
I understand you're in debt but have you stopped eating so that you can repay your debt?  well its the same thing regards Mass only more important.

You allocate some of your money to repay the debt and some money for living.  That s how the worlds population manage debt.

The one hour rule I would imagine but I'm not certain was for times when there was no vehicular transport and cannot really apply in todays times.  I would think its reasonable to go once or twice a month to take into consideration the person who covers you gas.
However, if you saved 10 dollars on each of the weeks you were not travelling to mass for the weekend that you are going and then you're not putting extra expense on the person who is paying for your gas.
or take a job at Mac Donalds evening shifts and pay for your own gas.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2021, 09:10:06 PM »
With regard to restitution, I'm not sure what the rules are. What money am I allowed to spend on stuff other than paying back the debt, and what money must be used in order to pay back the debt? (This particular debt is partly due to stuff such as theft and property damage. If it were merely a loan I suppose there'd be no hurry to pay it off before an agreed-upon date, but it's not merely a loan.)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 09:12:32 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2021, 12:37:11 PM »
Can you obtain permission from the people who have some say in this that you be allowed to go to mass one Sunday per month? Then you might be able to make it to one of the closer traditional masses at least sometimes. I wouldn't go to the Novus Ordo, but that is a decision each must prayerfully make for him or herself, so I won't comment on that aspect as it applies to you.
 
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Offline lauermar

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2021, 06:58:06 PM »
In most archdioceses, the obligation to attend mass every Sunday has been lifted since March 2020 due to Covid-19. In Chicago, the dispensation of obligation to attend is still in place.

Do any of the valid churches stream mass online? That may be the best solution for you. Perhaps you can receive in-person communion and confession once a month. That's what I did during lockdown last year. You can go to a nearby N.O. parish that doesn't do any funny stuff (no themed masses with puppets) one time each month. I don't think that will put your soul in peril.  The rest of the month, you can stream a Latin mass on your computer or device.

St. John Cantius Chicago is excellent. You can subscribe to them on YouTube and watch their masses anytime.  https://www.cantius.org/
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM by lauermar »
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2021, 03:34:44 PM »
With regard to restitution, I'm not sure what the rules are. What money am I allowed to spend on stuff other than paying back the debt, and what money must be used in order to pay back the debt? (This particular debt is partly due to stuff such as theft and property damage. If it were merely a loan I suppose there'd be no hurry to pay it off before an agreed-upon date, but it's not merely a loan.)
I would say that you should make a real good faith effort to make full restitution; but laying enough money aside to go to Mass once a Month as suggested, seems like a reasonable measure.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 07:13:39 AM »
Can you obtain permission from the people who have some say in this that you be allowed to go to mass one Sunday per month? Then you might be able to make it to one of the closer traditional masses at least sometimes.
I would say that you should make a real good faith effort to make full restitution; but laying enough money aside to go to Mass once a Month as suggested, seems like a reasonable measure.

I suppose this might work as a solution. But with regard to restitution, what I don't know is what the rule is, or if there even is a knowable rule.

I have like $300 sitting around, set aside to be used as restitution. If I am allowed to spend that money on traveling back and forth to Mass, then that's about 20 round trips. So I could probably pay for my own gas, as well as talk my dad into letting me go on the condition that I pay for my own gas. But I take it that I'd then be required to go every week (as dictated by canon law), not just once a month. So this would then solve the problem for about 5 months, until the money runs out. But what I am worried about is whether or not I am allowed to spend the $300. I don't understand the rule to begin with, and I'm even more confused as to the exceptions to the rule. (Consider Zacheus in Luke 19. It just looks to me like he is capable of making restitution and that he is moved by the holy Spirit to make restitution. It does not look like he's following a set of rules that he consciously knows and understands, in a sort of Kantian system where he wants the bad thing but begrudgingly and slavishly does the good, without even really having the means of doing it. But on the other hand, there is the parable where our Lord throws the one guy into prison until he pays the last farthing. Kind of raises the question as to what would have happened had Zacheus been a poor man, unable to make restitution... whether our Lord would have forgiven him, and how much leeway he would have had with regard to spending money.)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 08:00:58 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 08:17:29 AM »
Zacheus acknowledged his past sinful deeds before our Lord by declaring that not only would he make restitution for what he had unjustly taken, but would pay double and even fourfold over and above the amount as an act of reparation.
You cannot spend all the money just to go to Mass; you are obliged to make a good faith effort to pay back the amount unjustly taken.
But a person who is destitute is not obliged to pay what he does not have. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 09:30:12 AM »
You cannot spend all the money just to go to Mass; you are obliged to make a good faith effort to pay back the amount unjustly taken.

But if this is the case, then why would I be permitted to spend even some of the money?

What I was saying about Zacheus was that it doesn't seem like he was consciously aware of the rules pertaining to restitution (and all the complexities of those rules). He had the money, and was penitent, and so he voluntarily paid it back (and even went beyond paying it back... which he was able to do, since he presumably had the money). This much makes perfect sense... I'd think that a person who loves God and neighbor would at least want to pay it back, and, if he were able to do so, would pay it back.
What I'm not understanding is the idea that there are knowable principles governing restitution--rules concerning the timing of the repayment, and what money you're allowed to spend on things other than the repayment, and what money you aren't allowed to spend except on the repayment. If such principles exist, I don't know what they are. I don't see where they were ever revealed either. I am aware that theologians have their own guesses as to what these principles may be, but does anyone really know? I personally don't know if it's ok to spend even a single penny on traveling to and from Mass, and I also don't know that it's not ok to spend all of the money on traveling to and from Mass. (Canon law would seem to imply that it must all be spent, until I no longer can. Though if it's a sin to spend all of it, or even any of it, then I guess this law doesn't bind.) I also don't know what other sorts of spending are acceptable (diaduit suggested that it is ok to spend the money, or at least some of the money, on food in order not to starve to death... which I think sounds reasonable, but what do I know?)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 09:50:46 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Attending Sunday Mass in this particular situation?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 09:49:22 AM »
Can you obtain permission from the people who have some say in this that you be allowed to go to mass one Sunday per month? Then you might be able to make it to one of the closer traditional masses at least sometimes.
I would say that you should make a real good faith effort to make full restitution; but laying enough money aside to go to Mass once a Month as suggested, seems like a reasonable measure.

I suppose this might work as a solution. But with regard to restitution, what I don't know is what the rule is, or if there even is a knowable rule.

I have like $300 sitting around, set aside to be used as restitution. If I am allowed to spend that money on traveling back and forth to Mass, then that's about 20 round trips. So I could probably pay for my own gas, as well as talk my dad into letting me go on the condition that I pay for my own gas. But I take it that I'd then be required to go every week (as dictated by canon law), not just once a month. So this would then solve the problem for about 5 months, until the money runs out. But what I am worried about is whether or not I am allowed to spend the $300. I don't understand the rule to begin with, and I'm even more confused as to the exceptions to the rule. (Consider Zacheus in Luke 19. It just looks to me like he is capable of making restitution and that he is moved by the holy Spirit to make restitution. It does not look like he's following a set of rules that he consciously knows and understands, in a sort of Kantian system where he wants the bad thing but begrudgingly and slavishly does the good, without even really having the means of doing it. But on the other hand, there is the parable where our Lord throws the one guy into prison until he pays the last farthing. Kind of raises the question as to what would have happened had Zacheus been a poor man, unable to make restitution... whether our Lord would have forgiven him, and how much leeway he would have had with regard to spending money.)

I don't think the bolded part is true based on the distances involved. Your closest traditional mass is over an hour away, so you are excused -- and you have other hardships going on as well. You have the duty to sanctify the days even when you cannot make it, of course. I'd suggest you get in touch with the priest at that closest traditional church and discuss all of this with him.
 
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