Author Topic: Why doesn't the catechism mention...  (Read 664 times)

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2020, 06:38:09 AM »
Stubborn,

Rejecting conversion is also rejecting God's mercy because that mercy is always available to us, no matter how deep and many our sins, and that's why it is a sin against the Third Person of the Trinity.  That's what "final impenitence" means.  That's not the same thing as "dying outside the Church," which is what you claimed.

I agree, final impenitence, which is the choice a Catholic may choose to make whilst she lives, merits damnation, yet if she changes her mind and chooses to repent before death, which she can, she can be forgiven for that sin - which means simply, that sin is forgivable. That is a sin like any other, not a sin that God will not forgive so long as forgiveness is sought.   
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2020, 07:17:15 AM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.



The two are really the same.

Final impenitance, refusing God's mercy at the end, could be committed by someone who is still in the Church.  Not all mortal sins take you out of the Church in this life.

True, yet final impenitence is a choice made before death, if the Catholic changed her mind in her last nano-second of life and chose to repent prior to death, God could (not would) forgive that sin (and her other sins) - this means *that* sin is not a sin which is unforgivable. No need to mention that there can be no forgiveness of any sin without repentance. 

Mortal sin merits damnation, mortal sin does not remove Catholics from membership within the Church, whose entire membership consists of mortal sinners - and always has.

Dying outside of the Church is the sin that cannot be forgiven because as taught in the opening paragraph of  Unam Sanctam, we Catholics confess that "outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins." This is why dying outside of the Church is the sin which can never be forgiven.

The teaching of the Church is that to live our lives outside of the Church is a sin, to die in that sin merits damnation. Even if it were possible for one outside of the Church to garner final repentance, per Unam Sanctam it would not avail them salvation because outside of her there is no forgiveness of sin.   
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 01:09:06 PM by Stubborn »
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Atlas

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2020, 02:49:09 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?
I think u ment to say the only sin that is unforgivable is blaspheming the holy spirit.

In other words saying that God is not powerful enough to save your soul and denying Him on this basis

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2020, 09:08:34 AM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?
I think u ment to say the only sin that is unforgivable is blaspheming the holy spirit.

In other words saying that God is not powerful enough to save your soul and denying Him on this basis

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No, that is not what I meant.

There is a huge misunderstanding here of what the "unforgivable sin" is. Catholics know and it is of the faith that for the sincere penitent there is no sin which God cannot, or will not forgive whilst we live. God wants to save us more than we want to save ourselves.


Matthew 12:30-32

30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

Those outside of the Church, which is Christ, are against Him. Very simple.

We Catholics confess that outside of the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, so those dying outside of the Church cannot be forgiven because they have denied themselves recourse to the keys of the Church. So the unforgivable sin is dying outside of the Church. Then after death comes the judgement, this is when one will be judged for the sin of living their whole lives against Him, outside of the Church.


31 *Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

This is explained in the Haydock Bible...."Now this kind of sin is usually accompanied with so much obstinacy, and such wilful opposing the Spirit of God and the known truth, that men who are guilty of it are seldom or ever converted; and therefore are never forgiven, because they will not repent. Otherwise there is no sin which God cannot, or will not forgive to such as sincerely repent, and have recourse to the keys of the Church.


32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

The Haydock explains essentially the same as above, that "this kind of sin is usually accompanied with so much obstinacy, and such wilful opposing the Spirit of God and the known truth, that men who are guilty of it are seldom or ever converted".

But if they repented God would forgive them and they could be converted, which means this sin is not the sin which is unforgivable.


Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Atlas

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2020, 09:22:37 AM »
I read what you are saying but my friend are you saying if you die and were never in the catholic church it is unforgivable? Who are you referring to as the church?

My understanding of blaspheming the holy spirit is the sin of judas.

Judas fell into despair after he betrayed Jesus he killed himself making a proclamation to God "you are not powerful enough to save me ". He rejected God completely. He made a conscious and willful decision to oppose God. To reject truth and to accept the death of despair  completely void of hope in salvation.

He blasphemed the holy spirit by is will and act of killing himself rather than repenting.

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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2020, 10:33:30 AM »
Stubb,
it seems what you are saying is that the "Sin against the Holy Ghost" is = dying outside the Church:
but this appears to be incorrect; there are those who die outside the Church because of Heresy; Schism or other sins that are not "sins against the Holy Ghost"; while there are those who die in the Church and lose their souls because they die unrepentant of their mortal sins.
Quote
outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins." This is why dying outside of the Church is the sin which can never be forgiven.
"Dying outside the Church" is not a sin in itself; but the result of other sins that lead men to refuse to enter the Church, such as pride; obstinacy in error; schism; etc. etc. There is no sin of "Dying outside the Church".

Stubb stated:
Quote
Mortal sin merits damnation, mortal sin does not remove Catholics from membership within the Church, whose entire membership consists of mortal sinners - and always has.
The Church consists of saints and sinners; the "entire membership" of the Church cannot consist of Mortal Sinners; then the Church would not be Holy; for example there are those who never soil their Baptismal innocence; and those who have Confessed their Mortal sins and have been forgiven; and now lead virtuous even saintly lives. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2020, 10:36:55 AM »
I read what you are saying but my friend are you saying if you die and were never in the catholic church it is unforgivable? Who are you referring to as the church?

I am referring to the same Church founded by Christ, the Roman Catholic Church, which is Christ. They are one and the same, as Pope Pius XII taught:
"...the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing". - Humani Generis (27)
This is also taught by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi and also in Scripture, writings of saints and Fathers etc. Christ and the Church are one.



My understanding of blaspheming the holy spirit is the sin of judas.

Judas fell into despair after he betrayed Jesus he killed himself making a proclamation to God "you are not powerful enough to save me ". He rejected God completely. He made a conscious and willful decision to oppose God. To reject truth and to accept the death of despair  completely void of hope in salvation.

He blasphemed the holy spirit by is will and act of killing himself rather than repenting.

But Judas could have repented and been forgiven, this means that sin is forgivable. This being true means *that* sin is not the unforgivable sin. That he chose to reject God and make a conscious and willful decision to oppose God was the choice he made, but he had a choice - reject God and remain against Him, or repent and seek forgiveness, he chose to die in his sin. 
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2020, 10:58:09 AM »
Stubb,
it seems what you are saying is that the "Sin against the Holy Ghost" is = dying outside the Church:
but this appears to be incorrect; there are those who die outside the Church because of Heresy; Schism or other sins that are not "sins against the Holy Ghost"; while there are those who die in the Church and lose their souls because they die unrepentant of their mortal sins.
Quote
outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins." This is why dying outside of the Church is the sin which can never be forgiven.
"Dying outside the Church" is not a sin in itself; but the result of other sins that lead men to refuse to enter the Church, such as pride; obstinacy in error; schism; etc. etc. There is no sin of "Dying outside the Church".

Those who live their lives outside of the Church are living their lives where there is no remission of sin, ipso facto this means they live in mortal sin. To die in that sin alone (forget about whatever other mortal sins they die with) means no hope of salvation, which of course means damnation, iow, for them there is no hope whatsoever, theirs is the unforgivable sin which cannot be forgiven because they are outside of the Church.
 

 
Stubb stated:
Quote
Mortal sin merits damnation, mortal sin does not remove Catholics from membership within the Church, whose entire membership consists of mortal sinners - and always has.
The Church consists of saints and sinners; the "entire membership" of the Church cannot consist of Mortal Sinners; then the Church would not be Holy; for example there are those who never soil their Baptismal innocence; and those who have Confessed their Mortal sins and have been forgiven; and now lead virtuous even saintly lives.

Yes certainly, although many more sinners than saints. When I said the entire membership consists of mortal sinners, I only meant that all the members of the Catholic Church have been guilty of mortal sin at some point in their lives. Those who never soil their Baptismal innocence exist(ed) but have been / would be very rare indeed.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Atlas

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2020, 11:04:06 AM »
He could have been forgiven yes and he knew this. He knew very well who God was. He followed Jesus personally.

Remember he betrayed Jesus knowing that there was saving grace in Jesus he still choose and said in your infinite mercy and love you can not save me. This is why despair is so dangerous.


His act of hanging him self is the result of his choice.


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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2020, 12:13:03 PM »
Stubb
Quote
Those who live their lives outside of the Church are living their lives where there is no remission of sin, ipso facto this means they live in mortal sin. To die in that sin alone (forget about whatever other mortal sins they die with) means no hope of salvation, which of course means damnation, iow, for them there is no hope whatsoever, theirs is the unforgivable sin which cannot be forgiven because they are outside of the Church.
Yes, but there is no sin that is named: "The Sin of being outside the Church"; you wont find it listed among either the Mortal or Capital sins.
Quote
es certainly, although many more sinners than saints. When I said the entire membership consists of mortal sinners, I only meant that all the members of the Catholic Church have been guilty of mortal sin at some point in their lives. Those who never soil their Baptismal innocence exist(ed) but have been / would be very rare indeed.
No I deny that "all the members of the Catholic Church have been guilty of mortal sin at some point in their lives".
I don't know the exact number; but given the fact that the sacraments and the graces of God are there to prevent us from falling into Mortal and even venial sin; I would say that there are many who preserve their Baptismal innocence to the end of their lives.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2020, 02:26:47 PM »
Stubb
Quote
Those who live their lives outside of the Church are living their lives where there is no remission of sin, ipso facto this means they live in mortal sin. To die in that sin alone (forget about whatever other mortal sins they die with) means no hope of salvation, which of course means damnation, iow, for them there is no hope whatsoever, theirs is the unforgivable sin which cannot be forgiven because they are outside of the Church.
Yes, but there is no sin that is named: "The Sin of being outside the Church"; you wont find it listed among either the Mortal or Capital sins.

True, there is no sin named that as far as I know - there is however "the sin of unbelief". That is a sin that all those who do not believe in Him, in His Church, are guilty of as long as they are outside of the Church. As such, there is no question that those who are outside of the Church are indeed guilty of this sin of unbelief, by whatever name one wants to give it.

Specifically, John 16:9:
8 And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.
9 Of sin: because they believed not in me.
10 And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer. 

Quote
es certainly, although many more sinners than saints. When I said the entire membership consists of mortal sinners, I only meant that all the members of the Catholic Church have been guilty of mortal sin at some point in their lives. Those who never soil their Baptismal innocence exist(ed) but have been / would be very rare indeed.
No I deny that "all the members of the Catholic Church have been guilty of mortal sin at some point in their lives".
I don't know the exact number; but given the fact that the sacraments and the graces of God are there to prevent us from falling into Mortal and even venial sin; I would say that there are many who preserve their Baptismal innocence to the end of their lives.
[/quote]

You could be right, other than God, who knows?
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2020, 06:53:49 PM »
Despair, the lack of Hope in Gods Mercy is the unforgivable sin. This is a sin against the Holy Ghost because He is the one who can move men's souls.
 
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