Author Topic: Why doesn't the catechism mention...  (Read 676 times)

Offline pioflower

  • Hellebardier
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 19 times
Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« on: December 28, 2020, 04:15:52 PM »
The mark of the beast if it is an unforgiveable sin?
 

Offline abc123

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1101
  • Thanked: 1047 times
  • Religion: Reformed
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2020, 04:23:08 PM »
 ::)

Right on schedule.
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 

Offline Stubborn

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Thanked: 632 times
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2020, 04:40:51 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
The following users thanked this post: Prayerful

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7223
  • Thanked: 5396 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 04:43:45 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.
 
The following users thanked this post: St.Justin

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 496
  • Thanked: 108 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2020, 05:09:29 PM »
I thought that blaspheming the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin?
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8328
  • Thanked: 6751 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2020, 05:11:36 PM »
From:  "My Catholic Faith A Catechism in Pictures"; Most Rev. Louis LaRavoire Morrow, S.T.D. Pg.   151:
Quote
Can all sins be forgiven?-Yes, all sins, however great, can be forgiven, through the infinite merits of Christ, Who is God.
The repentant sinner is told in Scripture: "If your sins be as scarlet, they shall be made white as snow" (Is. I.17).
1.God is always ready to forgive our sins, no matter how great or how many they are, if we are truly sorry for them. NO actual sin can be forgiven without sorrow and repentance on the part of the sinner.
Our Lord said: "I say to you that, even so, there will be joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over ninety nine just who have no need of repentance.''(Luke 15:7).
2. The sin against the Holy ghost which Christ warned us would not be forgiven in heaven or on earth is persistent impenitence, the sin of one who rejects conversion and dies in mortal sin. One guilty of this sin can never obtain forgiveness of God, because at the hour of death he continues to thrust God away from him.
A man mortally wounded cannot have any hope of cure if he not only refuses to listen to his doctors, but shuts hi mouth against all medicines, and kicks away all medical instruments and help. Even Judas would have been pardoned if he had asked for forgiveness and made a sinceeree act of contrition before his death.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 05:22:21 PM by Michael Wilson »
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: red solo cup, Stubborn

Offline Stubborn

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Thanked: 632 times
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2020, 05:12:36 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.

No, the sin of refusing God's mercy is in fact forgivable, and remains forgivable as long as the sinner lives because as long as the sinner lives he has opportunity to make a choice, should the sinner decide to give in and accept God's mercy, he will be forgiven of having rejected it - this means that sin is forgivable.

Dying outside of the Church however leaves one without any hope of forgiveness, which makes this the only sin that is unforgivable.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7223
  • Thanked: 5396 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2020, 05:33:27 PM »
Stubborn,

Rejecting conversion is also rejecting God's mercy because that mercy is always available to us, no matter how deep and many our sins, and that's why it is a sin against the Third Person of the Trinity.  That's what "final impenitence" means.  That's not the same thing as "dying outside the Church," which is what you claimed.
 
The following users thanked this post: Stubborn

Offline pioflower

  • Hellebardier
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 19 times
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2020, 06:31:59 PM »
Doesn't the book of the apocalypse mention an unforgiveable sin?
 

Offline St.Justin

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2764
  • Thanked: 1206 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2020, 07:07:34 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.

Or as I have learned it the loss of Hope in ones Salvation. Or as it is formally stated "sin directly against the Holy Ghost".
 
The following users thanked this post: Miriam_M

Offline Prayerful

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7187
  • Thanked: 3356 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2020, 07:10:19 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.

The two are really the same.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8328
  • Thanked: 6751 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2020, 07:26:06 PM »
Doesn't the book of the apocalypse mention an unforgiveable sin?
For heaven's sake man; give God the benefit of the doubt.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7223
  • Thanked: 5396 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2020, 08:10:51 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.

No, the sin of refusing God's mercy is in fact forgivable, and remains forgivable as long as the sinner lives because as long as the sinner lives he has opportunity to make a choice, should the sinner decide to give in and accept God's mercy, he will be forgiven of having rejected it - this means that sin is forgivable.

Final impenitence occurs while the sinner lives.  He has a final opportunity to be forgiven, and he rejects that, either by refusing to acknowledge his sinfulness, or by acknowledging it, being offered opportunities to repent, and refusing those opportunities, including near his death.

 
The following users thanked this post: Stubborn

Offline Non Nobis

  • Why are you fearful?
  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5111
  • Thanked: 3908 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2020, 10:03:59 PM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.

The two are really the same.

Final impenitance, refusing God's mercy at the end, could be committed by someone who is still in the Church.  Not all mortal sins take you out of the Church in this life.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!
 
The following users thanked this post: Stubborn, Miriam_M

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7223
  • Thanked: 5396 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Why doesn't the catechism mention...
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2020, 12:23:56 AM »
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven, that is the sin of dying outside of the Church. That is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Simple, no?

No.  The unforgivable sin is refusal of God's Mercy.  That's the sin directly against the Holy Ghost. It is the sinner's last and ultimate opportunity to save himself.

The two are really the same.

Final impenitance, refusing God's mercy at the end, could be committed by someone who is still in the Church.  Not all mortal sins take you out of the Church in this life.

Yes.  This is why Baptism is an indelible mark.  You can go through the formal process of "removing" that (invisible) mark, mechanically, by formally affiliating with and professing another religion or philosophical set of beliefs, but those are external efforts which do not release you from your membership and all that is implied by that. You remain a disobedient son or daughter of the Church.  And, as I think Non Nobis is referring to, you may also be excommunicated, but excommunication is a tool designed to make clear the danger of your disobedience and encourage your return. Excommunication does not mean that you are no longer morally responsible for your disobedience and heretical beliefs.