Author Topic: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?  (Read 725 times)

Offline GiftOfGod

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Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« on: December 13, 2020, 05:54:05 PM »
Does anyone pray the Rosary without the Fatima Ejaculation? I have always prayed it but I am now convinced that Our Lady of Fatima was a false apparition or false claims were made about it. No, I don't want to discuss it as there are already threads on it but I will say that the Church allows Catholics freedom to doubt private revelations, even if the revelations are approved (all approval means is that nothing is said that goes against the faith). SD threads on the subject:

http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=17989.msg398635
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=19635.msg434771


Anyway, if anyone has prayed the Rosary in pre-Fatima style, did you notice any additional graces? Any fewer graces?
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2020, 10:56:15 PM »
Anyway, if anyone has prayed the Rosary in pre-Fatima style,

Back in the eighties when I was sacristan at a Dominican church, they didn't do the Fatima ejaculation. I assumed it was a result of their perceived obligation to protect the rosary as given to St. Dominic.
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2020, 12:52:36 AM »
Back in the eighties when I was sacristan at a Dominican church, they didn't do the Fatima ejaculation. I assumed it was a result of their perceived obligation to protect the rosary as given to St. Dominic.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Were these traditional Dominicans?
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2020, 08:21:42 AM »
Back in the eighties when I was sacristan at a Dominican church, they didn't do the Fatima ejaculation. I assumed it was a result of their perceived obligation to protect the rosary as given to St. Dominic.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Were these traditional Dominicans?

Semi-traditional. We had what I thought at the time was a "Latin Mass," with a beautiful, semi-professional choir, but I later learned enough to know that it was just the Novus Ordo, with the Ordinary sung in Latin by the congregation and the propers chanted by the choir.
 

Offline drummerboy

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2020, 11:00:25 AM »
I've omitted them for many years now, they just seem to bog the rosary down, as do many of the other prayers added on over the centuries (i.e "grace of the mystery...., etc).  It seems the mental aspects of the rosary have been pushed aside as increasing concessions to people's inability to concentrate for more than the 2-3 minutes it takes per mystery.  In my private rosary, in fact, I just say the Pater's and Ave's; the Gloria's were added by St. Louis de Montfort.  This allows me to focus on the mental aspect of the rosary, similar to early monks who said 150 Pater's or Ave's in lieu of the Office.  As for grace, that also depends on the interior disposition of the one praying, not necessarily which, or how many, prayers are said.
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2020, 08:42:50 AM »
they just seem to bog the rosary down

That's what I think too, but I'm not sure that any staunch Fatima believer would agree or would be ok with omitting the "O my Jesus", seeing as our Lady specifically requested it (and why would she request a prayer that bogs the rosary down?)

That said, the English "O my Jesus" isn't even a literal translation of the original Portuguese. It does have roughly the same meaning, but it's lengthier as if the translator for some reason decided to take a lot of license.

for more than the 2-3 minutes it takes per mystery

In my past experience it's been more like 12-13 minutes per mystery, and even then I can't do it. I don't think it's humanly possible.
 

Offline Padraig

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2020, 12:33:17 PM »
I had no idea that the Gloria was added by Louis de Montefort.

Daniel, when you say the mysteries take you 12-13 minutes each, are you referring to the full sets of mysteries (Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious), or each individual decade? I think you and drummerboy may be referring to different things.

When I visited the SPPX seminary in Winona some years ago, they said the Fatima prayer in Latin, and I was surprised by how little connection it had to the English version.

I don't feel generally opposed to the Fatima prayer, except that I find myself reflexively starting it after anytime I say the "Glory Be." For instance, when saying night prayers with my 3 year-old, I usually say the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be, and then usually have to stop myself from beginning the Fatima prayer.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2020, 01:46:08 PM »
Daniel, when you say the mysteries take you 12-13 minutes each, are you referring to the full sets of mysteries (Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious), or each individual decade? I think you and drummerboy may be referring to different things.

No, I mean each decade. Perhaps 12-13 minutes was a bit of an exaggeration, but the full 5-decade set did take upwards of about an hour if I recall correctly. (I don't pray it anymore.) I think sometimes less than an hour, but never less than 30 minutes, and usually more than 45 minutes. That's when praying alone at my own pace. When "praying" in a group (or with a tape) it's considerably faster, maybe about 20 minutes, but I honestly don't know how anyone is able to pray that quickly, let alone meditate while doing so.
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2020, 04:11:10 PM »
The Legion of Mary, at least the praesidium I have a member of (insofar as I am in these semi lockdown days) has a strict rule. The standard five decades preceded by a short supplication nearly identical to that at the opening of a canonical hour. Perhaps Frank Duff wanted people to concentrate on getting basics right. Perhaps rattling off too many additional prayers quickly can be a danger. Anyhow the Fatima prayer has always been understood as something additional which can foster devotion. If it does not, or a chapel or sodality does not say it, it does not detract from a Rosary.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2020, 04:11:48 PM »
Here is the Fatima prayer in Portuguese:
Quote
meu Jesus, perdoai-nos, livrai-nos do fogo do inferno; levai as alminhas todas para o Céu, principalmente aquelas que mais precisarem.
Literally translates as "O my Jesus, forgive us, free-us from the fire of Hell; take all the souls to Heaven, mainly those that are in most need.''
Its pretty close to the English version, the only difference is the addition of "sins", after "forgive us" and "mercy" after "in most need".
The prayers can be omitted; but Our Blessed Mother requested that the prayer be added, in order to obtain the salvation of souls that would otherwise be lost and go to Hell; and this is in conformity with God's will, expressed in Sacred Scripture:
1 Tim. 2:
Quote

[1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: [6] Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
With Haydock's  notes:
Quote
Verse 4:

All men to be saved. They (Protestants) contradict this, and other places of the Scripture, as well as the tradition and doctrine of the Catholic Church, who teach that God willeth only the salvation of the predestinated, of the elect, and as they say, of the first-begotten only: and that he died only for them, and not for all mankind. But if it is the will of God that all and every one be saved, and no one resists, or can frustrate the will of the Almighty, whence comes it that every one is not saved? To understand and reconcile divers places in the holy Scriptures, we must needs distinguish in God a will that is absolute and effectual, accompanied with special graces and assistances, and with the gift of final perseverance, by which, through his pure mercy, he decreed to save the elect, without any prejudice to their free will and liberty; and a will, which by the order of Providence, is conditional, and this not a metaphorical and improper will only, but a true and proper will, by which he hath prepared and offered graces and means to all men, whereby they may work their salvation; and if they are not saved, it is by their own fault, by their not corresponding with the graces offered, it is because they resist the Holy Ghost. (Acts vii. 51.) If in this we meet with difficulties, which we cannot comprehend, the words of St. Paul, (Romans ix. 20.) O man, who art thou, who repliest against God? may be sufficient to make us work our salvation with fear and trembling. (Witham)
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2020, 07:02:32 PM »
I personally see no issue with the Fatima prayer. We should always pray for the souls of the deceased.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2020, 12:32:01 AM »
We pray "lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of Thy mercy". This could include deceased souls who are in purgatory, and need to be "lead out of purgatory to heaven".  This is certainly mercy, but they are already saved and no longer sinning.  So I think of this prayer as referring as Mike said mainly to the mercy needed by sinners, "souls that would otherwise be lost and go to Hell", especially when they are dying.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 12:33:40 AM by Non Nobis »
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2020, 07:56:00 AM »
I think there's some debate about the meaning of the word "alminhas" in the original prayer. I don't speak Portuguese (let alone the particular kind of Portuguese spoken in Fatima in 1917) so I won't weigh in on this.
But I've heard it said that by using the diminutive form ("alminhas" instead of "almas"), that our Lady was specifically asking us to pray for the souls in purgatory. The argument basically goes: "alminhas" means not "souls" but "little souls", and is equivalent to the phrase "poor souls" in English, i.e. the souls in purgatory. "Take all the poor souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need".
On the other hand, I've also heard others argue that the word "alminhas" is just a more affectionate way of saying "almas". Or that maybe it's child talk or something. So it would not significantly change the meaning--"alminhas" would still refer to souls in a general sense, not only to the souls in purgatory.

(As for "... of Thy mercy", I don't see anything theologically wrong with it. Because of course it's an act of God's mercy. But on principle, I don't see why it was inserted into the English translation. And in a way it does seem to change the focus/emphasis slightly. If God/our Lady wanted the prayer to draw attention to God's mercy, those words would have been explicit in the Portuguese.)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 08:00:33 AM by Daniel »
 
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Offline drummerboy

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2020, 07:29:33 PM »
I think there's some debate about the meaning of the word "alminhas" in the original prayer. I don't speak Portuguese (let alone the particular kind of Portuguese spoken in Fatima in 1917) so I won't weigh in on this.
But I've heard it said that by using the diminutive form ("alminhas" instead of "almas"), that our Lady was specifically asking us to pray for the souls in purgatory. The argument basically goes: "alminhas" means not "souls" but "little souls", and is equivalent to the phrase "poor souls" in English, i.e. the souls in purgatory. "Take all the poor souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need".
On the other hand, I've also heard others argue that the word "alminhas" is just a more affectionate way of saying "almas". Or that maybe it's child talk or something. So it would not significantly change the meaning--"alminhas" would still refer to souls in a general sense, not only to the souls in purgatory.

(As for "... of Thy mercy", I don't see anything theologically wrong with it. Because of course it's an act of God's mercy. But on principle, I don't see why it was inserted into the English translation. And in a way it does seem to change the focus/emphasis slightly. If God/our Lady wanted the prayer to draw attention to God's mercy, those words would have been explicit in the Portuguese.)

But translation is also a question of context, and in light of the Fatima message as a whole it would not make sense for OLOF to ask such a prayer be included after every decade of the rosary for the poor souls, when she emphasized praying for sinners so much
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Omitting the Fatima Ejaculation?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2020, 12:30:38 AM »
There's a set of Fr. Patrick Peyton's rosary recordings on YouTube that does not include the Fatima prayers. 



 
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