Author Topic: Ukrainian Byzantine rite  (Read 509 times)

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3175
  • Thanked: 843 times
Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« on: December 06, 2020, 12:25:27 PM »
I've been going to a Ukrainian Byzantine rite parish, and I'm a bit confused on a few points.

First, do they not do Advent? I'm aware that they've been fasting since mid-November, but today was the "27th Sunday after Pentecost". Feels like the year hasn't ended yet. (So, just when does their year begin?)

Second, I notice that none of the females there wear chapel veils or head coverings. Is this how it's supposed to be? I thought that the practice of women wearing head coverings during Mass was something biblical and universal, and that it had more to do with modesty than with rubrics or canon law?

Third, the Mass I've been going to is bilingual (Ukrainian / English). What I'm wondering is, is this Ukrainian language the same kind of Ukrainian that Ukrainians speak everyday on the streets? Or is it a more ancient, more sacred form of Ukrainian? (Speaking of which, if this is the Byzantine rite then why is it not in Greek?)
 

Offline Jayne

  • Mary Garden
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13786
  • Thanked: 6107 times
  • Comic Sans Frontières
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2020, 01:20:42 PM »
Quote
Does Advent exist in the Ukrainian Catholic Church?
Yes! Ukrainian Catholics refer to the pre-Christmas fast period as Pylypivka or St. Philip’s Fast, as it always begins on the feast of St. Philip the Apostle, November 14. Unlike the Latin Rite, our Advent is not a liturgical season; we do not see any changes in the Divine Liturgy, Vespers or Matins.
Pylypivka is a little lent of 40 days of fasting to prepare for the Nativity Feast (Christmas) and the Great Feast of Theophany (Epiphany). During the early part of the fast, the rule is identical to that of the Apostles’ Fast (minimally: no meat on W/F. Traditionally: no meat, dairy, eggs, fish, wine, or oil on M/W/F, allowing wine and oil T/Th, and allowing fish, wine, and oil on Sa/Sun).
During the latter part of the fast, fish is no longer eaten on Saturdays or Sundays. In different traditions, this heightening of the fast may be for either the last week or the last two weeks.
The Holy Supper, or Sviata Vechera, is a 12-dish meal on the eve of the Nativity that is a traditional fasting meal in the Ukrainian Church to end the fast before the next day's feasting.e]
https://www.facebook.com/StSophiaParish/posts/does-advent-exist-in-the-ukrainian-catholic-churchyes-ukrainian-catholics-refer-/396993050404162/

The practice of head-covering varies from country to country and from parish to parish.  It is apparently not regulated by Church rules, but by social custom.  From what I have read, nobody will try to stop a woman who wants to cover her head from doing so, but it won't necessarily be practiced in any given parish.  I have to admit, I find this problematic.

At the time the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia was written, around a hundred years ago, Ukrainian Catholics would have used Church Slavonic in liturgy.  There is an article here: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14041b.htm  Now, however, it is likely you are attending a liturgy in Ukrainian.  Since this is a relatively recent change, it is probably a fairly modern form of Ukrainian.  As you can see in the article, it was more usual for Eastern Rite Churches to use Church Slavonic than Greek.  (Now vernacular is common.)  It explains how this developed.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 
The following users thanked this post: Daniel

Offline abc123

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1100
  • Thanked: 1045 times
  • Religion: Reformed
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2020, 09:46:05 AM »
I've been going to a Ukrainian Byzantine rite parish, and I'm a bit confused on a few points.

First, do they not do Advent? I'm aware that they've been fasting since mid-November, but today was the "27th Sunday after Pentecost". Feels like the year hasn't ended yet. (So, just when does their year begin?)

The Byzantine liturgical year begins on September 1.

Advent is not celebrated in the same way as in the West. There is no Advent wreath and the season is celebrated primarily through observing St. Philip's Fast.


Second, I notice that none of the females there wear chapel veils or head coverings. Is this how it's supposed to be? I thought that the practice of women wearing head coverings during Mass was something biblical and universal, and that it had more to do with modesty than with rubrics or canon law?

It seems to be more a cultural thing in Eastern Catholic churches. In my experience with ROCOR and the OCA headcoverings are more prevalent for similar reasons that you find them in more traditional Roman catholic parishes.


Third, the Mass I've been going to is bilingual (Ukrainian / English). What I'm wondering is, is this Ukrainian language the same kind of Ukrainian that Ukrainians speak everyday on the streets? Or is it a more ancient, more sacred form of Ukrainian? (Speaking of which, if this is the Byzantine rite then why is it not in Greek?)

First off Eastern Catholics do not refer to their liturgy as 'Mass' but as The Divine Liturgy. Most of the year it is the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. During the Sundays of Lent and other feasts it is the Divine Liturgy of St Basil.

I'm unfamiliar with Ukrainian parishes but are you sure that they are using Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic? Depending on the area of the country and how Latinized the parish is they may still use Slavonic, which looks and sounds like Ukrainian to one who is unfamiliar with the language.

The reason that it isn't in Greek is because the East has typically preferred to celebrate the DL in the vernacular. This is practiced variably since ROCOR still uses mostly Old Church Slavonic. To hear Greek you would have to go to a Greek Orthodox Church most likely.
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 
The following users thanked this post: Daniel

Offline aquinas138

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1032
  • Thanked: 1024 times
  • Παναγία Τριάς, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς!
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2020, 09:03:18 PM »
It's called the Byzantine rite because it was the rite of Constantinople, the capital of Byzantium; older Catholic publications use other terms, like Byzantine-Slavic, Greek-Slavonic, etc. The Novus Ordo calls itself "the Roman rite" besides virtually never being celebrated in Latin—the rites are generally named from their place of origin, not their language. In the Orthodox world, the term Byzantine usually refers to Greco-Arab usage, as distinct from Slavic/Slavonic usage. The fact that the Byzantine Catholics adopted the name "Byzantine" is a little unusual given their Ruthenian origins. Their Orthodox counterparts call their American jurisdiction the "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," which is reflective of the complicated history of Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian Christians in the US. It is usually abbreviated as ACROD ("American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese").
O Mary most pure, golden censer that became the tabernacle of the uncontainable divinity, in you the Father was well pleased; in you the Son did dwell; and the Holy Spirit, by overshadowing you, revealed you to be the Birthgiver of God.
 
The following users thanked this post: TheReturnofLive

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1289
  • Thanked: 481 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2020, 09:58:44 PM »
I'm unfamiliar with Ukrainian parishes but are you sure that they are using Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic? Depending on the area of the country and how Latinized the parish is they may still use Slavonic, which looks and sounds like Ukrainian to one who is unfamiliar with the language.

The Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy made the switch to contemporary Ukrainian; in fact, it's one of the main reasons the Society of St. Josaphat (the SSPX affiliated Ukrainian organization) formed.
Some Ukrainian Catholic parishes do offer Slavonic liturgies, but they have a Latin Mass like existence now.

Also, Ukrainian Orthodox parishes are weird because many of them will be virtual clones of ROCOR liturgies but Ukrainian instead of Russian culture, while others will be mirrors of their Catholic counterparts (centuries of separation leads to subtle changes and cultural influences), depending on the history of the parish (Either as a Ukrainian Catholic Church that entered into union with Orthodoxy at some point, or formed by Ukrainian Orthodox immigrants)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 10:05:12 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1289
  • Thanked: 481 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2020, 10:06:44 PM »
Their Orthodox counterparts call their American jurisdiction the "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," which is reflective of the complicated history of Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian Christians in the US. It is usually abbreviated as ACROD ("American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese").

Not quite; the Ruthenians claim to be a separate ethnicity from the Ukrainians. Hence why there are two separate Catholic jurisdictions (Ruthenian and Ukrainian)
 

Offline aquinas138

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1032
  • Thanked: 1024 times
  • Παναγία Τριάς, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς!
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2020, 11:44:56 AM »
Their Orthodox counterparts call their American jurisdiction the "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," which is reflective of the complicated history of Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian Christians in the US. It is usually abbreviated as ACROD ("American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese").

Not quite; the Ruthenians claim to be a separate ethnicity from the Ukrainians. Hence why there are two separate Catholic jurisdictions (Ruthenian and Ukrainian)

Sorry, I meant ACROD is the counterpart to the Byzantine Catholic Church, which is what the Ruthenians are called in the US.
O Mary most pure, golden censer that became the tabernacle of the uncontainable divinity, in you the Father was well pleased; in you the Son did dwell; and the Holy Spirit, by overshadowing you, revealed you to be the Birthgiver of God.
 

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 496
  • Thanked: 107 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Ukrainian Byzantine rite
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2020, 06:12:40 PM »
Their Orthodox counterparts call their American jurisdiction the "American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church," which is reflective of the complicated history of Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian Christians in the US. It is usually abbreviated as ACROD ("American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese").

Not quite; the Ruthenians claim to be a separate ethnicity from the Ukrainians. Hence why there are two separate Catholic jurisdictions (Ruthenian and Ukrainian)

This is why I don't like the Eastern Rites. They are too ethnicity or nationality-oriented. This is not a good way to organize religion. I don't know Spanish or Polish or Italian but the liturgy in the same no matter the location. You can't say the same about all the Eastern Rites.

I think that all Eastern Rites should be merged, maybe save for the Maronites (since they have been around since the 4th century). All other rites have been around only since the 1500s, with two being created in the past 20 years and ten being created since the founding of the USA (a very young country). I have nothing against Eastern Catholics (despite their constant bitching about the "Latins") but if the West, almost exclusively, has one rite (the Roman Rite) then they ought to have one rite too. With the decrease in nationalism and the increase of globalization, many rites will go extinct sooner than later. They might have survived Ottoman rule and Latinization but nothing will stop young Eastern Catholics from leaving those shithole countries to seek work in the West and Western liberalism making the population less nationalistic (not to mention less religious).