Author Topic: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.  (Read 3877 times)

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2020, 03:47:12 PM »
But if the rosary is not revealed then I would question why we should even be praying it to begin with. I think many people would agree with me that the rosary doesn't seem to be a very good prayer. (I could raise all sorts of objections to the rosary.) If the rosary developed, then either it developed under the inspiration of God, or it developed under the inspiration of the devil, or it developed under no inspiration at all--but it's kind of hard to believe that it developed under the inspiration of God, seeing as it does not seem to be a very good prayer. The rosary is then, at best, just some prayer on more or less the same level as any other prayer, and, at worst, a tool of the devil probably designed to lead us away from God. Only if the rosary--and the luminous mysteries--comes from God is it worth praying, but this does not seem to be the case.

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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2020, 07:36:08 PM »
As a mother of 9, I concur with this wholeheartedly.

Sorry, I no don't take religious advice from women (see St. Paul's Epistles to the Corinthians) and I shouldn't even be discussing important matters with such irrational beings. Don't you have diapers to change?

I don't quite get how a putative Catholic man would say something like that to a mother of nine.  Take a week off from posting. 

You questioning my religiosity and manhood is uncharitable. Me pointing out that St. Paul and the Church forbid women from teaching or having authority over men on spiritual matters is not uncharitable. You'll find clergy writing through the ages that women are irrational compared to men and I think it is settled scientifically as well. But lesson learned.


It is pretty much the official SSPX position now that Vatican II is theoretically capable of orthodox interpretation, although such interpretation rarely takes place in practice.

Source for that? I'd love to see it. It must take Olympian levels of (mental) gymnastics to make a blatantly heretical document (such as Lumen Gentium) interpretable in an orthodox way.


Teaching your kids outright that the Novus Ordo is bad is a recipe ripe for badness, because what seems to happen is those little sede/trad kids grow up into teenagers and young adults, then they go and see a 'reverent' Novus Ordo or even an average Novus Ordo and go "where are the clowns?", and things don't go well from there.

Better, rather, to teach them the Faith, and make sure they "know their stuff", as opposed to teaching them the ins and outs of the lacking of the NO.

Just leaving it at clown masses? That isn't enough. First, you shock them with the sacrilege (clown masses, communion in the hand, BLM sermons, Protestant hymns, etc.), then you teach them about the invalidity of the mass according to dogma (Trent), the doubtful validity of the new rite of ordination (and episcopal consecration of bishops), then the problems with the consecration of the bread and wine (thank you Fr. Cekada (RIP) for the booklet!), and of course the fruits of the NO: 99% contracepting, nobody goes to confession, the majority supports abortion and gay marriage, 2/3rds of the priests are fags, systemic child molestation, etc. It's really a shame that there isn't a children's book on this.


But to raise a new point which I don't believe GoG brought up, it is a violation of dogma to "revise" the liturgy in such a way as to introduce heresies into the Mass. Whether or not this actually happened, I don't know. But at least the SSPX says it did, and they're not even sedevacantists.

It is impossible for the Church to promulgate and use a heretical rite as her lex orandi. If the NOM is heretical, then by definition the Church defected. There's no way around it.

Yes, there is. It's called sedevacantism. You don't want to face the fact that the sodomite heretic Giovanni Montini wasn't a pope. Once you accept that premise, the indefectibility of the Church still stands strong. With your logic, the Church's defectibility is on shaky ground.


...

But if the rosary is not revealed then I would question why we should even be praying it to begin with. I think many people would agree with me that the rosary doesn't seem to be a very good prayer. (I could raise all sorts of objections to the rosary.) If the rosary developed, then either it developed under the inspiration of God, or it developed under the inspiration of the devil, or it developed under no inspiration at all--but it's kind of hard to believe that it developed under the inspiration of God, seeing as it does not seem to be a very good prayer. The rosary is then, at best, just some prayer on more or less the same level as any other prayer, and, at worst, a tool of the devil probably designed to lead us away from God. Only if the rosary--and the luminous mysteries--comes from God is it worth praying, but this does not seem to be the case.

https://fatima.org/about/fatima-the-requests/sister-lucy-of-fatima-speaks-on-the-rosary/

If the guy has a problem with the age-old and settled private revelation of St. Dominic involving the Rosary then quoting an even more controversial private revelation (Fatima) isn't going to help. Daily reminder that it is not a requirement for Catholics to believe in private revelations. Catholics are free to doubt them. I personally doubt Fatima over the claim that "Portugal won't lose the Faith" (because it obviously has).

Internet forums are the worst place for you to be, to be honest.  You need a peasant's spirituality, because all you do is overthink things.  You need a strong relationship with a patient and wise spiritual director. 

This 100%
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2020, 09:20:33 PM »
But if the rosary is not revealed then I would question why we should even be praying it to begin with. I think many people would agree with me that the rosary doesn't seem to be a very good prayer. (I could raise all sorts of objections to the rosary.) If the rosary developed, then either it developed under the inspiration of God, or it developed under the inspiration of the devil, or it developed under no inspiration at all--but it's kind of hard to believe that it developed under the inspiration of God, seeing as it does not seem to be a very good prayer. The rosary is then, at best, just some prayer on more or less the same level as any other prayer, and, at worst, a tool of the devil probably designed to lead us away from God. Only if the rosary--and the luminous mysteries--comes from God is it worth praying, but this does not seem to be the case.

Internet forums are the worst place for you to be, to be honest.  You need a peasant's spirituality, because all you do is overthink things.  You need a strong relationship with a patient and wise spiritual director.

They're legitimate objections. I'd list them out but I'm not going to bother, since the objections might be blasphemous and it's all hypothetical anyway. At any rate, the Church at least appears to endorse Fatima and Lepanto (and therefore appears to acknowledge the rosary's divine origin). But I do wonder.

Not sure what you mean by "peasant's spirituality". A good spiritual director would be helpful, and perhaps even necessary for my salvation, except for the fact that I have yet to come across a good spiritual director. I'd like to think that priests are not doing this purposefully, but the outcome (at least with respect to me) is the same either way.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2020, 11:08:01 PM »
...

But if the rosary is not revealed then I would question why we should even be praying it to begin with. I think many people would agree with me that the rosary doesn't seem to be a very good prayer. (I could raise all sorts of objections to the rosary.) If the rosary developed, then either it developed under the inspiration of God, or it developed under the inspiration of the devil, or it developed under no inspiration at all--but it's kind of hard to believe that it developed under the inspiration of God, seeing as it does not seem to be a very good prayer. The rosary is then, at best, just some prayer on more or less the same level as any other prayer, and, at worst, a tool of the devil probably designed to lead us away from God. Only if the rosary--and the luminous mysteries--comes from God is it worth praying, but this does not seem to be the case.

https://fatima.org/about/fatima-the-requests/sister-lucy-of-fatima-speaks-on-the-rosary/

If the guy has a problem with the age-old and settled private revelation of St. Dominic involving the Rosary then quoting an even more controversial private revelation (Fatima) isn't going to help. Daily reminder that it is not a requirement for Catholics to believe in private revelations. Catholics are free to doubt them. I personally doubt Fatima over the claim that "Portugal won't lose the Faith" (because it obviously has).

On that page that I quoted Sister Lucy does not even refer to the private revelations of Fatima, nor is the private revelation of St. Dominic mentioned.  If you had have read it you would know Sister Lucy was simply speaking of the Rosary;  that after the Liturgy of the Eucharist the Rosary is what most unites us to God and that the prayers that comprise it, the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be have their origins in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.  Any Catholic that has a problem with the Rosary has a major problem.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 06:59:25 PM by mikemac »
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2020, 11:22:48 PM »
On that page that I quoted Sister Lucy does not even refer to the private revelations of Fatima, nor is the private revelation of St. Dominic mentioned.  If you had have read it you would know Sister Lucy was simply speaking of the Rosary;  that after the Liturgy of the Eucharist the Rosary is what most unites us to God and that the prayers that comprise it, the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be have their origins in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. 

Sister Lucy would be a nobody if it weren't' for the private revelation. Fatima and Sister Lucy are inextricably linked.

Any Catholic that has a problem with the Rosary has a major problem.

I disagree. Praying the Rosary has never been required by the Church in any dogma or doctrine and since the St. Dominic apparition is a private revelation, Catholics are free to not believe it. Eastern Rite Catholics don't pray the Rosary because the Rosary is a Latin Rite devotion. Do Eastern Rite Catholics have a "major problem" to you?
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2020, 11:29:16 PM »
On that page that I quoted Sister Lucy does not even refer to the private revelations of Fatima, nor is the private revelation of St. Dominic mentioned.  If you had have read it you would know Sister Lucy was simply speaking of the Rosary;  that after the Liturgy of the Eucharist the Rosary is what most unites us to God and that the prayers that comprise it, the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be have their origins in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. 

Sister Lucy would be a nobody if it weren't' for the private revelation. Fatima and Sister Lucy are inextricably linked.

Any Catholic that has a problem with the Rosary has a major problem.

I disagree. Praying the Rosary has never been required by the Church in any dogma or doctrine and since the St. Dominic apparition is a private revelation, Catholics are free to not believe it. Eastern Rite Catholics don't pray the Rosary because the Rosary is a Latin Rite devotion. Do Eastern Rite Catholics have a "major problem" to you?

You’re just being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.  Reread the discussion.  Daniel suggested the Rosary may be a “tool of the devil” “probably leading us away from God.”   Mikemac clearly addressed Daniel’s view of the rosary as a major problem.  If you disagree, then you also have a major problem.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2020, 07:56:24 AM »
I'm with Gift of God. Sister Lucy's words carry weight only because she is Sister Lucy. If those same words had come from somebody else, we'd take it as little more than opinion.

As for what she said, it's not-uncontroversial to say the least.

But as I said, the Church appears to say that the rosary is from God. So I'm not going to condemn the rosary. Still, the rosary does not appear to be from God. These two "appearances" contradict themselves, and so one must be illusory: either the Church does not actually say that the rosary is from God (and we should perhaps be condemning it openly), or else the rosary does not actually not-come from God (and we probably ought to be praying it every day). This information would be nice to know, but don't look at me. I don't have it.
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2020, 11:30:07 AM »
I'm with Gift of God. Sister Lucy's words carry weight only because she is Sister Lucy. If those same words had come from somebody else, we'd take it as little more than opinion.

As for what she said, it's not-uncontroversial to say the least.

But as I said, the Church appears to say that the rosary is from God. So I'm not going to condemn the rosary. Still, the rosary does not appear to be from God. These two "appearances" contradict themselves, and so one must be illusory: either the Church does not actually say that the rosary is from God (and we should perhaps be condemning it openly), or else the rosary does not actually not-come from God (and we probably ought to be praying it every day). This information would be nice to know, but don't look at me. I don't have it.

Brother, scrupulosity tends to make us look at every possibility, unnecessarily, through a microscope.  Nothing has to be "proven" --in the sense of sharing physically in a revelation, or reading it in an Encyclical or Catechism -- for it to be recommended to us.  Please do not let your scrupulosity undermine basic tenets of spirituality.

You're getting into questioning the Church here, who, while not elevating Fatima to dogma, recognizes the essential message of it and enjoins us at the very least to say our rosary.  She does not enjoin us to believe every detail from the children's narratives.  Only the most extreme modernists in the Church -- the very same priests who also reject essential tenets of the Faith, sacramental theology, and moral theology -- treat the rosary as if it's optional.  The vast majority of both N.O. clergy and trad clergy recommend the rosary. This is just about trust and obedience.  (Obedience includes what is recommended for our spiritual health.)

Don't be a "Thomas" -- demanding the see the Wounds "before" you will believe.   ;)
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2020, 06:35:30 PM »
I'm with Gift of God. Sister Lucy's words carry weight only because she is Sister Lucy. If those same words had come from somebody else, we'd take it as little more than opinion.

As for what she said, it's not-uncontroversial to say the least.

Well it's not like it was just Sister Lucy that said after the Mass the Rosary is the greatest prayer.  Lots of saints and prelates have.  Look it up.  Who's "we", you and GOG?

But as I said, the Church appears to say that the rosary is from God. So I'm not going to condemn the rosary. Still, the rosary does not appear to be from God. These two "appearances" contradict themselves, and so one must be illusory: either the Church does not actually say that the rosary is from God (and we should perhaps be condemning it openly), or else the rosary does not actually not-come from God (and we probably ought to be praying it every day). This information would be nice to know, but don't look at me. I don't have it.

The Our Father is Biblical.  The first part of the Hail Mary is Biblical, then we ask Mary to pray for us.  The Glory Be is Biblical (John 1:1-5).  It just seems awful weird for someone that calls himself a Catholic to be wondering whether the Rosary could possibly be "developed under the inspiration of the devil" or that the Rosary could possibly be "a tool of the devil probably designed to lead us away from God".  Where are these thoughts coming from?  You need to ask yourself that Daniel.  Are you afraid to talk to a priest about these thoughts?  Because in your state that is exactly who you need to talk to.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 06:53:02 PM by mikemac »
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Offline Daniel

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Re: The importance of teaching children that the Novus Ordo is bad.
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2020, 07:06:53 PM »
Those aren't my objections though. I have no problem with the Our Father or the Glory Be. I don't even have much problem with the Hail Mary.

As for the rosary being the second greatest prayer next to the Mass, what ever happened to the Divine Office? The Divine Office is the Church's own prayer and is necessarily superior to all non-liturgical prayers prayed by private individuals.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 07:12:21 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2020, 07:21:01 PM »
On that page that I quoted Sister Lucy does not even refer to the private revelations of Fatima, nor is the private revelation of St. Dominic mentioned.  If you had have read it you would know Sister Lucy was simply speaking of the Rosary;  that after the Liturgy of the Eucharist the Rosary is what most unites us to God and that the prayers that comprise it, the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be have their origins in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. 

Sister Lucy would be a nobody if it weren't' for the private revelation. Fatima and Sister Lucy are inextricably linked.

Any Catholic that has a problem with the Rosary has a major problem.

I disagree. Praying the Rosary has never been required by the Church in any dogma or doctrine and since the St. Dominic apparition is a private revelation, Catholics are free to not believe it. Eastern Rite Catholics don't pray the Rosary because the Rosary is a Latin Rite devotion. Do Eastern Rite Catholics have a "major problem" to you?

Try to follow the train of thought please.  Nobody said the Rosary is required by the Church.  Eastern Rite Catholics may not pray the Rosary but that doesn't mean they have a problem with it.  As it stands just you and Daniel have a problem with the Rosary. 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2020, 07:28:30 PM »
Those aren't my objections though. I have no problem with the Our Father or the Glory Be. I don't even have much problem with the Hail Mary.

As for the rosary being the second greatest prayer next to the Mass, what ever happened to the Divine Office? The Divine Office is the Church's own prayer and is necessarily superior to all non-liturgical prayers prayed by private individuals.

Well you did say the Rosary could possibly be "developed under the inspiration of the devil" or that the Rosary could possibly be "a tool of the devil probably designed to lead us away from God".  Talk to a priest.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2020, 08:07:35 PM »
As it stands just you and Daniel have a problem with the Rosary.

What makes you think I have a problem with the Rosary? I have said nothing against it.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2020, 09:29:56 PM »
As it stands just you and Daniel have a problem with the Rosary.

What makes you think I have a problem with the Rosary? I have said nothing against it.

It's just Daniel then?  So you have abandoned him after you got him fired up?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 09:36:28 PM by mikemac »
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
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Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: The importance of teaching children that sedes are not Catholic.
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2020, 10:06:34 PM »
As it stands just you and Daniel have a problem with the Rosary.

What makes you think I have a problem with the Rosary? I have said nothing against it.

It's just Daniel then?  So you have abandoned him after you got him fired up?

What makes you think I have a problem with the Rosary?