Author Topic: Women's head coverings should be opaque?  (Read 2725 times)

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2020, 07:16:45 PM »
Just because you and your circle jerk buddies got your panties in a wad

Let us try to keep things civil. It seems to me that you make an effort to be gentlemanly, please keep it up despite provocation.

I'm done trying. The mods here don't care, so I'm not going to fight with one hand if others are fighting with both hands.

There are no mods here. Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2020, 08:49:16 PM »
Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.

I don't want to fight; I was personally attacked first.
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2020, 09:22:06 PM »
Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.

I don't want to fight; I was personally attacked first.

oh, that's right. You were called a gay.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2020, 12:02:38 AM »
The OP will never find a spouse.

He already has.



That is really nasty, even if you think you are just having fun.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2020, 10:53:41 AM »
Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.

I don't want to fight; I was personally attacked first.

Bull you have been fighting and calling people names and talking down to people on this forum since you joined.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2020, 11:54:08 AM »
Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.

I don't want to fight; I was personally attacked first.

Bull you have been fighting and calling people names and talking down to people on this forum since you joined.

I think GoG and Chris Tulsa are the same person.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2020, 12:15:52 PM »
Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.

I don't want to fight; I was personally attacked first.

Bull you have been fighting and calling people names and talking down to people on this forum since you joined.

Im not sure why this guy makes some people so upset. From what I've seen it's generally true that others begin insulting him or taking a tone before he does. I recommend hounding him less. If he does go full Diamond bros he will get banned like everyone else who has ever done that.
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2020, 12:21:58 PM »
I’ve been far more on the receiving end from you, than you have from me, H.   I guess you don’t want peace, I’ve tried several times.  So be it. 
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2020, 01:34:42 PM »
The "trads" of the Eastern Orthodox (Old Believers) only permit opaque head coverings. Have you read or heard anywhere else in the Latin Rite about this requirement? Makes sense to me because what is the point of covering something out of respect if it is see-through. Would a traditional Catholic woman dare to wear see-through clothing? Of course not, so why skimp out on a Biblical requirement to cover women's heads?

Regarding the bolded, this is a poor analogy.  Among the many men I have known in my life, none of them would say that a woman's hair is as arousing or distracting as her naked body. 

But I prefer to enlarge the context for this to one of general charity for others in our appearance, on the part of women and men

That context includes a descent into sloppiness regarding social etiquette and protocol since 1960, just as much in men as in women.  That is the realistic climate that the West has inherited since so-called "liberation" (i.e., self-centeredness and contempt for social norms).  The legacy continues, even --often-- absent awareness of that.  It has become so habitual to take umbrage at any request to mortify one's own preferences and "comfort" that a huge percentage of people are not even aware of their self-absorption.

That's the first context.

The second context is one of leadership:  If a traditional Catholic environment is going to manifest respect for all aspects of tradition (including dress at Mass), then the priest in charge should communicate that in some way.  In some chapels, dress codes are posted near the entrance and/or published in the bulletin, on the website if there is one, etc.  That doesn't always convince all attendees, however, and so sometimes priests, if they want compliance, have to mention it at the pulpit, which one trad priest I know does.

The third context -- one I have observed to be most effective -- is the conversion of the person himself/herself.  Thus, in my parish, a couple coming in from the N.O., both wearing jeans at their first several Masses, changed their own habits out of love and respect.  She now veils and wears skirts.  For anyone to complain about the fact that her veil is lace and thus one can "see through" it and notice she has actual hair is just, I'm sorry, petty.

In my experience, the least effective method of enforcement is being lectured by lay men or lay women, but that seems to be, unfortunately, the most frequent approach.

I have a variety of head coverings, all of them gifts from a loving friend who loves to adorn others.  Some are opaque, one is lace, and one is what I would call diaphanous, although not gossamer. I choose based on the colors I am wearing that day. I consider it a privilege to cover my head for a variety of reasons having to do with The Presence. 

In several trad parishes I have visited, the much bigger problem is male attire, not female.  Recently, one of those priests had to mention from the pulpit that he does not consider polo shirts on men to be proper Sunday attire.  (Do men even own collared shirts any more?  How could it be so difficult to refrain from wearing T-shirts and polo shirts to Mass?  Even if your occupation is manual labor, you never get invited to a more dressy occasion?  You never interview anywhere for a new job?)  Anyway, that priest's one remark from the pulpit -- even though it had also been published in the bulletin for weeks -- cured the problem instantly.  The next Sunday, all the men were wearing shirts and ties.
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2020, 02:21:15 PM »
I don't judge people by what they wear to Mass as that is on them. We never know their circumstances. I am sure the Good lord would rather see people making the effort to worship Him than not.
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2020, 03:06:55 PM »
I don't judge people by what they wear to Mass as that is on them. We never know their circumstances. I am sure the Good lord would rather see people making the effort to worship Him than not.

I don't know whether you were responding generally or to me in particular, but that wasn't the point I was making.  I was instead making a comparative point.  In every trad parish I can name, the problem with dress is much more with men than with women, objectively speaking.  Therefore, lay men complaining about whether a head covering is fully opaque or only partly so is disproportionate to other actual clothing non-conformity, particularly of men.

Second point:  appearance does mean something, but that contemporary society is so used to accepting sloppy norms and rejecting formality of any kind, that conformity to a different, more formal, standard will not be instant. And within this second point is that we should rejoice when we see even gradual conformity.  I vigorously disagree that it doesn't matter what you wear.  No trad priest I know agrees with such a viewpoint.

Third point:  Enforcement and encouragement is more effective from a priest than from a lay person.

Fourth point: Different attire for Mass than for other occasions permanently solves itself when it comes from the person himself and herself.

New point:  When a man who yesterday wore flip-flops, basketball shorts, and a T-shirt with a commercial logo on it to Mass, but today wears a collared shirt and conventional (not fancy) shoes, is probably not a man whose "circumstances" prevent him from not wearing flip-flops, basketball shorts, and a T-shirt.  Just a wild guess.
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2020, 06:34:39 PM »
In every trad parish I can name, the problem with dress is much more with men than with women, objectively speaking.  Therefore, lay men complaining about whether a head covering is fully opaque or only partly so is disproportionate to other actual clothing non-conformity, particularly of men.

Recently, one of those priests had to mention from the pulpit that he does not consider polo shirts on men to be proper Sunday attire.  (Do men even own collared shirts any more?  How could it be so difficult to refrain from wearing T-shirts and polo shirts to Mass? 

I must have missed the part where Saint Paul said "But every man praying or prophesying while wearing a polo shit, disgraceth his body: for it is all one as if he were naked."

I consider it a privilege to cover my head for a variety of reasons having to do with The Presence.

It's not a privilege to cover your head. It is a command from the Holy Ghost via Saint Paul the Apostle and it is codified in Canon Law. It's a rule and if you enjoy following it, that's fine, but it's not a "privilege".
 

Offline GiftOfGod

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2020, 06:37:28 PM »
Don't stoop to your opponents level and create scandal cause you wanna fite.

I don't want to fight; I was personally attacked first.

Bull you have been fighting and calling people names and talking down to people on this forum since you joined.

Show me where I have initiated "fighting and calling people names and talking down to people". Quote the posts, go ahead.
 

Offline Jayne

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2020, 08:49:01 AM »
7. Are you self-aware you are acting anti-social?  That in a single week you've pissed off nearly the entire forum?

It is not "nearly the entire forum." The people who appear the most "pissed off"with Gift of God tend to be those with a history of personality conflicts on the forum and creating forum drama.  You yourself have identified Heinrich as a problematic poster and you too fit that category. (Are you self-aware of that?)  The two of you have made the majority of the negative posts in regard to Gift of God, a fine example of pots calling a kettle black (although, I suppose, black pots matter.)

While I do not deny that he is a somewhat abrasive poster, there have been many, many posters here with comparable and greater levels of abrasiveness.  Many of them ended up fitting in with the forum.  It is a shame that this newbie happened to catch KK's attention just as he is attempting to resume more involved moderation when both you and Heinrich have written things far more deserving of a ban, but gotten away with it.

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Offline abc123

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Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2020, 09:17:55 AM »
7. Are you self-aware you are acting anti-social?  That in a single week you've pissed off nearly the entire forum?

While I do not deny that he is a somewhat abrasive poster, there have been many, many posters here with comparable and greater levels of abrasiveness.  Many of them ended up fitting in with the forum.  It is a shame that this newbie happened to catch KK's attention just as he is attempting to resume more involved moderation when both you and Heinrich have written things far more deserving of a ban, but gotten away with it.

Perhaps you missed the post where he dismissed a mother of 9 by telling her to go "change diapers." Or did you miss where he declared about 99% of the Catholic world to be non-Catholics with whom he has nothing in common.

GOG sounds like an ignorant, over zealous kid who thinks himself wise when in fact he's a fool.
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 
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