Author Topic: Women's head coverings should be opaque?  (Read 2723 times)

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 455
  • Thanked: 102 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« on: November 16, 2020, 08:26:43 PM »
Sain Hippoclytus of Rome said, circa AD 200, said "And let all the women have their heads covered with an opaque cloth, not with a veil of thin linen, for this is not a true covering."

The "trads" of the Eastern Orthodox (Old Believers) only permit opaque head coverings. Have you read or heard anywhere else in the Latin Rite about this requirement? Makes sense to me because what is the point of covering something out of respect if it is see-through. Would a traditional Catholic woman dare to wear see-through clothing? Of course not, so why skimp out on a Biblical requirement to cover women's heads?
 

Offline Kaesekopf

  • Enkindle in us the virtues of humility and patience So we too may obediently do your will faithfully.
  • Oberst
  • Major
  • *****
  • Posts: 20777
  • Thanked: 6709 times
    • Suscipe Domine
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2020, 11:03:11 PM »
I know where this is gonna go...
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 

Offline The Curt Jester

  • Water-drinker at the Coffee Social
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1037
  • Thanked: 514 times
  • Religion: Neo-Pelagian Angry Traditionalist with Narcissistic Tendencies
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2020, 11:33:28 PM »
So are you suggesting a paper bag?
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, lauermar, Miriam_M, St.Justin, Christe Eleison, Blue Violet, TheReturnofLive

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 455
  • Thanked: 102 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2020, 11:45:18 PM »
I know where this is gonna go...

???


So are you suggesting a paper bag?

No. You might be thinking of something else...
 

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 455
  • Thanked: 102 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2020, 12:00:03 AM »
So are you suggesting a paper bag?

Most of the women pictured are wearing opaque head coverings. Pic is of a Society of St. Josephat priests hearing confession. This is an Eastern Rite organization in Ukraine affiliated with the SSPX.

 
The following users thanked this post: magdalena59

Offline The Curt Jester

  • Water-drinker at the Coffee Social
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1037
  • Thanked: 514 times
  • Religion: Neo-Pelagian Angry Traditionalist with Narcissistic Tendencies
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2020, 08:24:03 AM »
I knew what you were referring to.  The reason I replied in such a manner is because of the history of topics such as these on this forum and the direction they take.  As Kaeskopf said:

Quote
I know where this is gonna go...
The royal feast was done; the King
Sought some new sport to banish care,
And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool,
Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!"

The jester doffed his cap and bells,
And stood the mocking court before;
They could not see the bitter smile
Behind the painted grin he wore.

He bowed his head, and bent his knee
Upon the Monarch's silken stool;
His pleading voice arose: "O Lord,
Be merciful to me, a fool!"
 
The following users thanked this post: maryslittlegarden, Christe Eleison, Blue Violet

Offline Heinrich

  • Steig mal auf den Berg hinauf
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8562
  • Thanked: 3575 times
  • Gott, wende Dich zu uns und gib uns neues Leben
  • Religion: römisch-katholisch
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2020, 05:36:14 PM »
The OP will never find a spouse.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
The following users thanked this post: lauermar, TradGranny, TheReturnofLive

Offline Non Nobis

  • Why are you fearful?
  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5092
  • Thanked: 3886 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2020, 09:13:32 PM »
GiftOfGod, I thought you were telling Daniel he was scrupulous. Aren't you going to make him more scrupulous, now about seeing the color of hair under a woman's veil?  This is silly.  If woman anywhere prefer opaque coverings that is fine, but veils are fitting and are traditional unless you attempt to condemn the Church since loooong before Vatican II. 
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1289
  • Thanked: 480 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2020, 09:28:07 PM »
So are you suggesting a paper bag?

Most of the women pictured are wearing opaque head coverings. Pic is of a Society of St. Josephat priests hearing confession. This is an Eastern Rite organization in Ukraine affiliated with the SSPX.


Ah, you have been browsing my own thread posts here and on OrthodoxChristianity.net.

My old account was "Livenotonevil"

No way in hell did you find this picture on your own without taking it from me. So obscure of an organization (still cool nonetheless)
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1289
  • Thanked: 480 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2020, 09:31:21 PM »
Sain Hippoclytus of Rome said, circa AD 200, said "And let all the women have their heads covered with an opaque cloth, not with a veil of thin linen, for this is not a true covering."

The "trads" of the Eastern Orthodox (Old Believers) only permit opaque head coverings. Have you read or heard anywhere else in the Latin Rite about this requirement? Makes sense to me because what is the point of covering something out of respect if it is see-through. Would a traditional Catholic woman dare to wear see-through clothing? Of course not, so why skimp out on a Biblical requirement to cover women's heads?

In 200 AD, priests were still saying Mass in Greek in Rome and did not even have colored vestments (Eastern Orthodox have more colors than Catholics do!).

Additionally, back then (at least in the 6th century), the deacon or subdeacon (depending on the Mass) would announce for the Catechumens and non-Faithful to depart when the "Mass of the Faithful" (Roman Mass) or "Liturgy of the Faithful" (Eastern Liturgy) began, and they would leave. In fact it's this reason why the Mass is split up in two parts to this very day.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, around the same time, also said that women basically have to wear burkas and men are basically homosexual if they don't grow beards.

Could you imagine if they saw Priests not only growing beards, but wearing lace!



The Mass has changed subtly over time, it isn't this static block. And Trad Catholics need to concede this because it's a historical fact.

You have serious scruples, go see an actually competent priest.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 09:38:40 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 455
  • Thanked: 102 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2020, 10:00:56 PM »
Heinrich, do you want me to talk about your ability to remain married?

Most of the women pictured are wearing opaque head coverings. Pic is of a Society of St. Josephat priests hearing confession. This is an Eastern Rite organization in Ukraine affiliated with the SSPX.


Ah, you have been browsing my own thread posts here and on OrthodoxChristianity.net.

My old account was "Livenotonevil"

No way in hell did you find this picture on your own without taking it from me. So obscure of an organization (still cool nonetheless

I searched  for the Society of Saint Josaphat on Google Images, looking for photos. One of the results was that pic, which was posted on this web site years ago. Here's the post, which did not come from you:

The Society of Saint Josaphat is pretty cool. Easterners with the best of the Latin church mixed in.
Some recent pictures from the SSPX's eastern friends:


GiftOfGod, I thought you were telling Daniel he was scrupulous. Aren't you going to make him more scrupulous, now about seeing the color of hair under a woman's veil?  This is silly.  If woman anywhere prefer opaque coverings that is fine, but veils are fitting and are traditional unless you attempt to condemn the Church since loooong before Vatican II. 

I did tell him that (because he is preposterously afraid of sin) and I'm not going to change what I post based on one guy. I'm not condemning anyone or anything. Also, there were some serious problems within the Chruch before Vatical II. No, the headcovering wasn't one of them but I want to make sure you don't make the mistake that many trads do: to think pre-Vatican II was perfect.

You have serious scruples, go see an actually competent priest.

I do have a competent priest and I no longer have scruples due to his spiritual direction.

Pointing out a discrepancy in holding tradition is not scruples.
Pointing out that Eastern trads (both Catholic and Orthodox) hold-firm this tradition is not scruples.
Pointing out the logical equivelant to what a saint said on the matter is not scruples. 
Asking for more information, without declaring something sinful, is not scruples.

You need to go see an actually competent priest. Make sure he knows the definition of scruples first (unlike your current one)
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

  • Mary Garden
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 384
  • Thanked: 304 times
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2020, 10:24:06 PM »
Heinrich, do you want me to talk about your ability to remain married?

Most of the women pictured are wearing opaque head coverings. Pic is of a Society of St. Josephat priests hearing confession. This is an Eastern Rite organization in Ukraine affiliated with the SSPX.


Ah, you have been browsing my own thread posts here and on OrthodoxChristianity.net.

My old account was "Livenotonevil"

No way in hell did you find this picture on your own without taking it from me. So obscure of an organization (still cool nonetheless

I searched  for the Society of Saint Josaphat on Google Images, looking for photos. One of the results was that pic, which was posted on this web site years ago. Here's the post, which did not come from you:

The Society of Saint Josaphat is pretty cool. Easterners with the best of the Latin church mixed in.
Some recent pictures from the SSPX's eastern friends:


GiftOfGod, I thought you were telling Daniel he was scrupulous. Aren't you going to make him more scrupulous, now about seeing the color of hair under a woman's veil?  This is silly.  If woman anywhere prefer opaque coverings that is fine, but veils are fitting and are traditional unless you attempt to condemn the Church since loooong before Vatican II. 

I did tell him that (because he is preposterously afraid of sin) and I'm not going to change what I post based on one guy. I'm not condemning anyone or anything. Also, there were some serious problems within the Chruch before Vatical II. No, the headcovering wasn't one of them but I want to make sure you don't make the mistake that many trads do: to think pre-Vatican II was perfect.

You have serious scruples, go see an actually competent priest.

I do have a competent priest and I no longer have scruples due to his spiritual direction.

Pointing out a discrepancy in holding tradition is not scruples.
Pointing out that Eastern trads (both Catholic and Orthodox) hold-firm this tradition is not scruples.
Pointing out the logical equivelant to what a saint said on the matter is not scruples. 
Asking for more information, without declaring something sinful, is not scruples.

You need to go see an actually competent priest. Make sure he knows the definition of scruples first (unlike your current one)

I think people are just enjoying that fact that yet again...(anyone, anyone???) someone has dug up some really random quote about what women should be doing and presented it as a good to which modern trad ladies would be aiming if only they were holy enough. For the love of all...
 
The following users thanked this post: Traditionallyruralmom, St.Justin

Offline christulsa

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3536
  • Thanked: 2038 times
    • The Okie Traditionalist Blog
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2020, 10:48:58 PM »
I'm no expert, but anybody else noticing what I'm noticing?   :shrug:



The APA's DSM states the following criteria for Antisocial PD:

Quote
A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another


And Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

Quote
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8 ) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 10:55:07 PM by christulsa »
 
The following users thanked this post: diaduit, St.Justin

Offline St.Justin

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2759
  • Thanked: 1203 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2020, 11:14:35 PM »
In the Parish I grew up in women either wore scarfs or hats. Hats surely do not cover the hair. So I guess that since this was well before the council these ladies would not be considered Traditional Catholics by today's standards.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 09:14:08 PM by St.Justin »
 

Offline christulsa

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3536
  • Thanked: 2038 times
    • The Okie Traditionalist Blog
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Women's head coverings should be opaque?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2020, 11:29:29 PM »
The OP will never find a spouse.

He already has.