Author Topic: Separate property in marriage?  (Read 5893 times)

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Separate property in marriage?
« on: November 10, 2020, 02:39:19 PM »
I have not had success in the area of courting. I believe it is due to the fact that I own a house and have a few hundred thousand in equity in it and I insist on it staying "sole and separate property" if we get married. The relationship always goes sour shortly after I tell the women my intentions regarding that. They presume that it will become theirs (community property) but I want to keep it separate. This has happened to 3 women so far and I don't know what to do. I thought about letting women assume that it would become community property until we get married but that wouldn't be honest.

Any advice?
 

Online christulsa

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3606
  • Thanked: 2075 times
    • The Okie Traditionalist Blog
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2020, 03:55:06 PM »
Maybe don’t mention it at all unless she asks.  And not put it in terms of a “prenup” agreement.  You bought the house before getting married, so the original equity would only be yours, legally.   She shouldn’t have a problem with that.  Whatever more equity goes into the house after the marriage, she legally shares 50/50 if in the worst case she isn’t faithful to you and practically ends the marriage.  That’s my take, but have you asked for advise about this from a Trad priest, and a lawyer?  Also, if you only date trad or conservative Catholic women, there was much less of a concern it ends and she takes you for all you’re worth (though there are plenty of difficult Trad marriages).   Marriage is never a sure bet, there’s always a significant risk it goes south, even if all seems right.   I’d go on Catholic Match, Traditional Catholic Singles, or SSPX Singles if you aren’t already. 
 

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2020, 04:08:42 PM »
I want to keep my house as a rental and in my name so that the future income and appreciation is mine. My future wife and I will buy another house together for us to live in. "Sole and separate property" is an old concept from Spain and is does not go against Catholicism, as prenuptial agreements do. 
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3588
  • Thanked: 1045 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2020, 04:39:47 PM »
Sounds like you're weeding out gold-diggers. Good job. Keep looking. St. Raphael will provide. ☺
I read a pre-Vatican II marriage prep book that said to avoid materialistic women like the plague.

Look at St. John Chrysostom's description of an idea/attractive wife (from his On Virginity):
Quote
it is not by beautifying herself, or by living a life of luxury, or by demanding from her husband money, or by being extravagant and lavish that she will be able to win him over. When she removes herself from all present concerns and imprints upon herself the apostolic way of life, when she displays great modesty, decorum, disdain for money and forbearance, then will she be able to capture him. When she says: "If we have food and clothing we have all that we need," [l Tim 6:8] when she practices this philosophy in her actions and, laughing at physical death, calls this life nothing, when she considers along with the prophet every glory of this life to be as the flower of the field, [Isa. 40:6] then she will capture him.

Also, all property is marriage should be common.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 04:44:46 PM by Geremia »
 
The following users thanked this post: Padraig, TheReturnofLive, GiftOfGod, Aulef

Offline diaduit

  • Mary Garden
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2020
  • Thanked: 2357 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2020, 04:42:48 PM »
I want to keep my house as a rental and in my name so that the future income and appreciation is mine. My future wife and I will buy another house together for us to live in. "Sole and separate property" is an old concept from Spain and is does not go against Catholicism, as prenuptial agreements do.

I wouldn't want you to marry my daughter.

I understand you being protective of your property/assets if you were dating secular women but really if you are looking for a trad wife then as much as she is giving herself to you and your future children you need to share yourself and your assets with her.  You should be king and she should be queen of the family castle.  Not sharing your castle with her is reducing her to a whore and a hired help who fires out your children and does the endless chores involved.  Please change your attitude, we're not all bad.
 
The following users thanked this post: Daniel, coffeeandcigarette, Blue Violet, Philip G., Angela

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2020, 04:54:52 PM »
I wouldn't want you to marry my daughter.

You shouldn't post such an insulting thing. Also, who brought up your daughter?

I understand you being protective of your property/assets if you were dating secular women but really if you are looking for a trad wife then as much as she is giving herself to you and your future children you need to share yourself and your assets with her.  You should be king and she should be queen of the family castle.  Not sharing your castle with her is reducing her to a whore and a hired help who fires out your children and does the endless chores involved.  Please change your attitude, we're not all bad.

Did you not understand what I wrote? "My future wife and I will buy another house together for us to live in."

I've never heard of a rule that a castle can't be kept and rented out by the husband. Why do you assume that I won't use the rents received on my family? You need to change your attitude. I think the women I spoke of talked to someone like you who filled their heads with bad thoughts.
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3175
  • Thanked: 843 times
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2020, 08:48:04 PM »
Why do you assume that I won't use the rents received on my family?

If that's what your plan is, then what exactly is your concern?

As head of the family, your property becomes property of the family. And as head, you decide how use the family's property for the benefit of the family. Your wife doesn't get to use it howsoever she wants, but it's nevertheless "hers" by the very fact that she's married to you.

It almost seems like a false dichotomy.

I suppose I could understand if you don't trust the woman that you're thinking of marrying, or if you think she's out to scam you or something. Or maybe you don't trust your own ability to keep your wife under control once you're married? But these are separate issues. You don't solve them by entering into a marriage while simultaneously trying to keep some of your property to yourself. What you're trying to do doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my opinion. It's like you're trying to divide your "personal life" from your "married life" or something. But it won't work, because you only have the one life, the "married life".
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 08:54:27 PM by Daniel »
 
The following users thanked this post: diaduit, Blue Violet

Online christulsa

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3606
  • Thanked: 2075 times
    • The Okie Traditionalist Blog
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2020, 11:08:22 PM »
I have not had success in the area of courting.

Any advice?

Yes, you are in luck newcomer.  Our own forum resident James03, one of the senior members and original members of SD, wrote a book giving advise for Catholic men about becoming better Catholic men, with a section on dating.  I bought it myself, as have other men here.

https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Red-Pill-Guide-Men/dp/1708960694#customerReviews
 
The following users thanked this post: diaduit, Elizabeth.2

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2020, 12:54:14 AM »
Why do you assume that I won't use the rents received on my family?

If that's what your plan is, then what exactly is your concern?

Because diaduit accused me of "not sharing my castle" with my wife and reducing her to the status of a whore.

As head of the family, your property becomes property of the family. And as head, you decide how use the family's property for the benefit of the family. Your wife doesn't get to use it howsoever she wants, but it's nevertheless "hers" by the very fact that she's married to you.

It almost seems like a false dichotomy.

I suppose I could understand if you don't trust the woman that you're thinking of marrying, or if you think she's out to scam you or something. Or maybe you don't trust your own ability to keep your wife under control once you're married? But these are separate issues. You don't solve them by entering into a marriage while simultaneously trying to keep some of your property to yourself. What you're trying to do doesn't make a whole lot of sense in my opinion. It's like you're trying to divide your "personal life" from your "married life" or something. But it won't work, because you only have the one life, the "married life".

Do you have any citations from a Catholic source for that? Because I can show you that Catholic societies in the Americans and Iberian Penninsula have been using the "community property" system (which allows for sole and separate property) for over 1,000 years without condemnation by the Church.


Yes, you are in luck newcomer.  Our own forum resident James03, one of the senior members and original members of SD, wrote a book giving advise for Catholic men about becoming better Catholic men, with a section on dating.  I bought it myself, as have other men here.

https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Red-Pill-Guide-Men/dp/1708960694#customerReviews

Interesting but I really think that my sole stumbling block is my insistence of keeping my property sole and separate. Maybe it's the way I say it but I don't think I'm presenting it in a rude way.
 

Offline diaduit

  • Mary Garden
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2020
  • Thanked: 2357 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2020, 03:26:26 AM »
I'm not assuming anything about 'rent' or whatever.  I'm not assuming you won't provide for your family either but you are entering marriage with a stipulation as Daniel put it well, that your asset remains the ownership of you solely ie like you're single.  Its an insult to you're bride, no more than a pre nup is!
Have the 3 previous ladies been decent Catholic girls?  If so then you may have lost out a lovely future wife because of this.  TBH it smacks of meanness which is seriously off putting for any woman and its a red flag.  Meanness isn't just about money, a mean person is difficult to live with and can cause untold stress in a family and a woman can smell this a mile off.
Can I ask why you don't want you're future wifes name on the deed?
 
The following users thanked this post: Philip G.

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2020, 05:22:27 AM »
you are entering marriage with a stipulation as Daniel put it well, that your asset remains the ownership of you solely ie like you're single. 

Can you show me a Catholic source on that not being allowed? Because so far you have told me that I am not a good person for not doing what you think is right, not on what any priest, theologian, Pope, Saint, Council, etc. has ever said. Also, I have never stipulated anything. I don't need to because my property will automatically stay sole and separate and will not be community property unless and until I authorize it. You still haven't addressed the fact that Iberian-derived law (in Europe and the Americas) has allowed this for over 1,000 years without condemnation by the church.

TBH it smacks of meanness which is seriously off putting for any woman and its a red flag.

How is wanting to keep what is mine, mine "mean"?

Can I ask why you don't want you're future wifes name on the deed?

Because I've worked hard and long, I bought it, I've been making payments on it, I've been maintaining it and I don't want to risk losing it if there is a divorce. Divorce is already painful, so why allow it to be worse by voluntarily putting myself in a position to lose more money? Trads sometimes get divorced, in case you didn't know. Can I ask you why you want my future wife's name on the deed?

« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 05:25:54 AM by GiftOfGod »
 

Offline queen.saints

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 855
  • Thanked: 688 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2020, 05:57:06 AM »
It’d be interesting to see the Catholic teachings on this.

It doesn’t have to be an issue of divorce. The modern inheritance laws which are so destructive to society bring another side to the question. Many families have been destroyed because the mother interfered in rightfully distributing the property.

There was just a double murder/suicide over this very issue.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/deaths-of-father-and-sons-may-have-been-over-disputed-inheritance-1.4391568?mode=amp
 
The following users thanked this post: Padraig

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2020, 06:28:07 AM »
It’d be interesting to see the Catholic teachings on this.

It doesn’t have to be an issue of divorce. The modern inheritance laws which are so destructive to society bring another side to the question. Many families have been destroyed because the mother interfered in rightfully distributing the property.

Community property laws also relate to inheritance. A spouse who receives an inheritance automatically holds the assets sole and separate, unless converted to community property by her own will. Again, this is Iberian legal tradition that is still used in the American Southwest. I know that doesn't relate to your specific issue of inheritance but I understand the problem. I know a man who was disinherited (along with his siblings) of millions of dollars by his stepmother. Well, actually by his father who succumbed to his second wife's ultimatum.
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3175
  • Thanked: 843 times
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2020, 07:40:34 AM »
What exactly do you mean by "community property"? Sorry, but I'm not familiar with how property laws work in Spain or Latin America. But that phrase in English seems to carry with it implications that I don't think you're trying to imply.

If what you're referring to is a kind of shared property between the husband and wife, in which the husband and wife are both the owners and are on equal footing, then I can take a guess as to why the Church has not required this. My guess is: because family structures are hierarchical; the husband and wife are not supposed to be on equal footing. The wife has no right to sell off the family property without her husband's permission, nor does she have a right to spend the family income howsoever she pleases. These sorts of decisions fall upon the husband who is head of the family. (And the wife certainly has no right to divorce her husband, let alone keep half the family property for herself.) So it makes sense if the Catholic Church does not force the husband and the wife to convert all their property into "community property" (as defined by these laws) upon marriage, as that would more or less undermine the family's natural structure.

Do you have any citations from a Catholic source for that?

Maybe somebody else does, but I do not. It's just that this is how marriage has always been understood. "Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh." (Genesis 2:24) The husband and wife are no longer two separate autonomous individuals, but are a single family and must act as one family unit. To say that the family's head should be entitled to his own property is about as crazy as saying that a man's physical head should be entitled to its own separate blood supply.

Because I've worked hard and long, I bought it, I've been making payments on it, I've been maintaining it and I don't want to risk losing it if there is a divorce. Divorce is already painful, so why allow it to be worse by voluntarily putting myself in a position to lose more money? Trads sometimes get divorced, in case you didn't know. Can I ask you why you want my future wife's name on the deed?

This is completely the wrong attitude. First off, you should be planning for marriage, not for divorce. Second, that's the chance you take when you get married, and is why you shouldn't marry somebody who is foreseeably going to turn against you and proceed to abuse the legal system in order to take what she's not entitled to. But marriage entails sacrifice, and it's not going to work if you're holding back (financially) out of fear that something might go wrong.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 07:46:57 AM by Daniel »
 
The following users thanked this post: Blue Violet

Offline GiftOfGod

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 486
  • Thanked: 106 times
  • Religion: Catholic (traditional)
Re: Separate property in marriage?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2020, 08:14:16 AM »
What exactly do you mean by "community property"? Sorry, but I'm not familiar with how property laws work in Spain or Latin America. But that phrase in English seems to carry with it implications that I don't think you're trying to imply.

It works the same as in California and Texas as it does in Mexico or Spain.


Maybe somebody else does, but I do not. It's just that this is how marriage has always been understood. "Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh." (Genesis 2:24) The husband and wife are no longer two separate autonomous individuals, but are a single family and must act as one family unit. To say that the family's head should be entitled to his own property is about as crazy as saying that a man's physical head should be entitled to its own separate blood supply.

That says nothing about finances. Care to explain why you think that separate property held by a married person is wrong but the Catholic Church in the USA, Latin America, and Iberia has been silent on it for over 1,000 years?