Author Topic: what happens in The Eucharist  (Read 151 times)

Offline christianchannel

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what happens in The Eucharist
« on: October 17, 2020, 03:29:30 PM »
hello brothers and sisters

i made this detailed video that talks more about Eucharist, and explaints things we cannot see
https://lbry.tv/@christianchannel:e/what-happens-in-the-eucharist:e

Regards
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2020, 03:48:05 PM »
Not bad but Two things: Why use the NO form? and the Mass is a representation of Calvary and not just a Commemoration of it.
 
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Offline christianchannel

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2020, 04:38:03 PM »
Not bad but Two things: Why use the NO form? and the Mass is a representation of Calvary and not just a Commemoration of it.

hello brother, peace be with you

there are many places in which the priest is not very familiarized with the latin mass, that is why normally speaking there is The Eucharist celebrated not in latin, this visions were presented to Catherine Rivas, she is a mystic from Bolivia, and she had the stifmas too.

Jesus said do this in memory of me, commemoration is bringing back to memory
what i want to show you is for you to be clear that Jesus does not dies again, rather you remember, so its like you see a movie of what happened

God bless you brother
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2020, 08:54:14 PM »
Not bad but Two things: Why use the NO form? and the Mass is a representation of Calvary and not just a Commemoration of it.

hello brother, peace be with you

there are many places in which the priest is not very familiarized with the latin mass, that is why normally speaking there is The Eucharist celebrated not in latin, this visions were presented to Catherine Rivas, she is a mystic from Bolivia, and she had the stifmas too.

Jesus said do this in memory of me, commemoration is bringing back to memory
what i want to show you is for you to be clear that Jesus does not dies again, rather you remember, so its like you see a movie of what happened

God bless you brother

2. Essential Identity of the Sacrifice of the Mass with the Sacrifice of the Cross In the Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Sacrifice of the Cross the Sacrificial Gift and the Primary Sacrificing Priest are identical; only the nature and mode of the offering are different* (De fide.)
The Nature of the Sacrifice of the Mass
§ 22. The Relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross
l. Relative Character of the Sacrifice of the Mass
In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. (De fide.)
While the Sacrifice on the Cross is an absolute sacrifice, as it is neither the commemoration of a past sacrifice nor the archetype of a future sacrifice, the Sacrifice of the Mass is a relative sacrifice, as it is essentially linked to the Sacrifice on the Cross. The Council of Trent teaches : Christ left a visible Sacrifice to His Church : “ in which that bloody sacrifice which was once offered cm the Cross should be made present, its memory preserved to the end of the world, and its salvation-bringing power applied to the forgiveness of the sins which are daily committed by us.” D 938. On the ground of this explanation the relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross may be more closely defined as a making-present (repraesentatio), a memorial (memoria), and an application (applicatio). The sacrifice of the Mass is the presenting again of the Sacrifice of the Cross, in so far as the sacrificial Body and the sacrificial Blood of Christ are made present under separate species, thus symbolically representing the real separation of the body and blood of Christ on the Cross. Again, the Sacrifice of the Mass is a commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Cross which continues until the end of time, as the anamnesis following the consecration specially indicates. But it is not a mere commemorative celebration (D 950); it is also a true and proper sacrifice. Finally, the sacrifice of the Mass is the means whereby the fruits of the Sacrifice of the Cross are applied to mankind in need of salvation. The Roman Catechism defines the relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross as a renewal (instauratio : II 4, 68. 74).
It follows from the relativity of the Sacrifice of the Mass that it in no way detracts from the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Sacrifice of the Mass draws its whole power from the Sacrifice of the Cross, whose fruits it applies to individual men. Cf. D gsi.
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2020, 09:00:48 PM »
http://catholicplanet.com/apparitions/false54.htm

Claims of Private Revelation: True or False?
An Evaluation of the messages of Catalina Rivas

Return to the Main List

    In my humble and pious opinion as a faithful Roman Catholic theologian, the messages and claimed private revelation to Catalina Rivas, a.k.a. Katya or Catia, (http://www.greatcrusade.org) are false and are not from Heaven. A list of reasons and examples follows.
 

Offline christianchannel

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2020, 09:48:31 PM »
hello brother, ty for replying, well it seems you are the only one replying to this thread haha

brother, so that you know, saying "in my humble opinion", thats not humble at all hahahaha

im so humble im gonna say im humble haha
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2020, 10:23:36 PM »
hello brother, ty for replying, well it seems you are the only one replying to this thread haha

brother, so that you know, saying "in my humble opinion", thats not humble at all hahahaha

im so humble im gonna say im humble haha

Those were not my words. they belong to the guy who wrote the article. but just so you know the words "In my humble and pious opinion" are a figure of speech in English.

Your use of the term "commemoration" as regards the Mass does not fit with Catholic Theology. See my post above. So if this usage came from Catalina Rivas it is causing me to question her Catholicity.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 10:30:21 PM by St.Justin »
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2020, 11:58:20 PM »
Not bad but Two things: Why use the NO form? and the Mass is a representation of Calvary and not just a Commemoration of it.

hello brother, peace be with you

there are many places in which the priest is not very familiarized with the latin mass, that is why normally speaking there is The Eucharist celebrated not in latin, this visions were presented to Catherine Rivas, she is a mystic from Bolivia, and she had the stifmas too.

Jesus said do this in memory of me, commemoration is bringing back to memory
what i want to show you is for you to be clear that Jesus does not dies again, rather you remember, so its like you see a movie of what happened

God bless you brother

2. Essential Identity of the Sacrifice of the Mass with the Sacrifice of the Cross In the Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Sacrifice of the Cross the Sacrificial Gift and the Primary Sacrificing Priest are identical; only the nature and mode of the offering are different* (De fide.)
The Nature of the Sacrifice of the Mass
§ 22. The Relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross
l. Relative Character of the Sacrifice of the Mass
In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. (De fide.)
While the Sacrifice on the Cross is an absolute sacrifice, as it is neither the commemoration of a past sacrifice nor the archetype of a future sacrifice, the Sacrifice of the Mass is a relative sacrifice, as it is essentially linked to the Sacrifice on the Cross. The Council of Trent teaches : Christ left a visible Sacrifice to His Church : “ in which that bloody sacrifice which was once offered cm the Cross should be made present, its memory preserved to the end of the world, and its salvation-bringing power applied to the forgiveness of the sins which are daily committed by us.” D 938. On the ground of this explanation the relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross may be more closely defined as a making-present (repraesentatio), a memorial (memoria), and an application (applicatio). The sacrifice of the Mass is the presenting again of the Sacrifice of the Cross, in so far as the sacrificial Body and the sacrificial Blood of Christ are made present under separate species, thus symbolically representing the real separation of the body and blood of Christ on the Cross. Again, the Sacrifice of the Mass is a commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Cross which continues until the end of time, as the anamnesis following the consecration specially indicates. But it is not a mere commemorative celebration (D 950); it is also a true and proper sacrifice. Finally, the sacrifice of the Mass is the means whereby the fruits of the Sacrifice of the Cross are applied to mankind in need of salvation. The Roman Catechism defines the relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross as a renewal (instauratio : II 4, 68. 74).
It follows from the relativity of the Sacrifice of the Mass that it in no way detracts from the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Sacrifice of the Mass draws its whole power from the Sacrifice of the Cross, whose fruits it applies to individual men. Cf. D gsi.

Excellent.

St. Justin, is this from Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine by Ludwig Ott?  I used to have the hard copy book but it's lost and so is my downloaded  version.  ::) It's not google-ready text online but I found a PDF again.

It might be a good book for christianchannel to invest in, a Catholic Classic - what do you think, Justin and Michael Wilson?
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2020, 02:01:17 PM »
Not bad but Two things: Why use the NO form? and the Mass is a representation of Calvary and not just a Commemoration of it.

hello brother, peace be with you

there are many places in which the priest is not very familiarized with the latin mass, that is why normally speaking there is The Eucharist celebrated not in latin, this visions were presented to Catherine Rivas, she is a mystic from Bolivia, and she had the stifmas too.

Jesus said do this in memory of me, commemoration is bringing back to memory
what i want to show you is for you to be clear that Jesus does not dies again, rather you remember, so its like you see a movie of what happened

God bless you brother

2. Essential Identity of the Sacrifice of the Mass with the Sacrifice of the Cross In the Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Sacrifice of the Cross the Sacrificial Gift and the Primary Sacrificing Priest are identical; only the nature and mode of the offering are different* (De fide.)
The Nature of the Sacrifice of the Mass
§ 22. The Relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross
l. Relative Character of the Sacrifice of the Mass
In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. (De fide.)
While the Sacrifice on the Cross is an absolute sacrifice, as it is neither the commemoration of a past sacrifice nor the archetype of a future sacrifice, the Sacrifice of the Mass is a relative sacrifice, as it is essentially linked to the Sacrifice on the Cross. The Council of Trent teaches : Christ left a visible Sacrifice to His Church : “ in which that bloody sacrifice which was once offered cm the Cross should be made present, its memory preserved to the end of the world, and its salvation-bringing power applied to the forgiveness of the sins which are daily committed by us.” D 938. On the ground of this explanation the relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross may be more closely defined as a making-present (repraesentatio), a memorial (memoria), and an application (applicatio). The sacrifice of the Mass is the presenting again of the Sacrifice of the Cross, in so far as the sacrificial Body and the sacrificial Blood of Christ are made present under separate species, thus symbolically representing the real separation of the body and blood of Christ on the Cross. Again, the Sacrifice of the Mass is a commemoration of the Sacrifice of the Cross which continues until the end of time, as the anamnesis following the consecration specially indicates. But it is not a mere commemorative celebration (D 950); it is also a true and proper sacrifice. Finally, the sacrifice of the Mass is the means whereby the fruits of the Sacrifice of the Cross are applied to mankind in need of salvation. The Roman Catechism defines the relation of the Sacrifice of the Mass to the Sacrifice of the Cross as a renewal (instauratio : II 4, 68. 74).
It follows from the relativity of the Sacrifice of the Mass that it in no way detracts from the Sacrifice of the Cross. The Sacrifice of the Mass draws its whole power from the Sacrifice of the Cross, whose fruits it applies to individual men. Cf. D gsi.

Excellent.

St. Justin, is this from Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine by Ludwig Ott?  I used to have the hard copy book but it's lost and so is my downloaded  version.  ::) It's not google-ready text online but I found a PDF again.

It might be a good book for christianchannel to invest in, a Catholic Classic - what do you think, Justin and Michael Wilson?

Yes best ref. book I own.

by the way I found that if you open the PDF with Edge instead of Adobe you can copy and paste from it.
 
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Online Daniel

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2020, 05:42:58 PM »
so its like you see a movie of what happened

I think I've heard this analogy before somewhere. (Forget where... I think from one of the celebrity Catholic apologists)

I think the analogy is decent but lacking. From the perspective of a Mass attendee engaging in mental prayer during Mass, yes, the Mass does call to mind Calvary. So in that sense it's like a movie. Just as you gain more insights each time you watch a movie (and a good movie doesn't get dull), so too do you gain more insights each time you meditate upon the Mass (and you can never exhaust the mysteries). And just as there's only one pre-recorded story or event being watched multiple times, there is also only one sacrifice being called to mind multiple times.

But (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), the objection here is that a movie of an event is not ontologically identical to the event. The Mass considered in itself isn't a movie of Calvary; it is Calvary. So in this sense it's not like a movie. (If I understand the theology correctly, I think the Mass somehow makes Calvary present each time the Mass is said. Almost like a time warp or something. Calvary becomes present to us and to God in reality, not solely in our minds.)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 05:45:11 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline christianchannel

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2020, 09:05:06 AM »
so its like you see a movie of what happened

I think I've heard this analogy before somewhere. (Forget where... I think from one of the celebrity Catholic apologists)

I think the analogy is decent but lacking. From the perspective of a Mass attendee engaging in mental prayer during Mass, yes, the Mass does call to mind Calvary. So in that sense it's like a movie. Just as you gain more insights each time you watch a movie (and a good movie doesn't get dull), so too do you gain more insights each time you meditate upon the Mass (and you can never exhaust the mysteries). And just as there's only one pre-recorded story or event being watched multiple times, there is also only one sacrifice being called to mind multiple times.

But (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), the objection here is that a movie of an event is not ontologically identical to the event. The Mass considered in itself isn't a movie of Calvary; it is Calvary. So in this sense it's not like a movie. (If I understand the theology correctly, I think the Mass somehow makes Calvary present each time the Mass is said. Almost like a time warp or something. Calvary becomes present to us and to God in reality, not solely in our minds.)

yes exactly brother, its like time warp, like you go back in time at that moment, hahaha very awesome right?
 

Offline DeaconJamesOxford

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2020, 09:13:30 AM »
'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma' by Ott is in print again from Baronius Press: https://www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=77#tab=tab-1
 

Offline DeaconJamesOxford

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2020, 09:22:21 AM »
Further to the 're-presentation' of the sacrifice on Calvary: Since God/Our Lord is eternal and outside/above/outside of time, the moment of the sacrifice at the crucifixion is just as present to Him now as it was then, and indeed as are all other moments of time - thus the Mass may be a memorial for us, as we perceive time, but it is a simultaneous re-presentation of Calvary in the eternal present for God
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: what happens in The Eucharist
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2020, 12:24:04 PM »
While Memorial and Commemoration are both fitting and theological terms for The Mass They are always used in conjunction with Re-Presentation.
But to use Memorial and Commemoration to define what the Mass is is about as NO has one can get and it is no wonder that NO "catholics" have lost respect and belief in the Real Presence. It is the same with the term participation.. Without proper Catechises people few these three words by the way they are used in layman's terms and not how the Church means them. I have even had people tell me that The Mass is a commemoration of Christ Resurrection.

The least we as Traditional Catholics can do is used these terms properly and in context and stop feeding the NO bandwagon.