Author Topic: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI  (Read 951 times)

Offline awkwardcustomer

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3475
  • Thanked: 1927 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2020, 08:31:03 AM »
.... what can you expect from a Pope?

Catholicism?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
The following users thanked this post: james03, Michael Wilson, lauermar, Miriam_M, Christina_S

Offline The Theosist

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 411
  • Thanked: 214 times
  • Religion: Christian
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2020, 09:13:15 AM »
Quote
since upon the freedom of this act depends its morality, that is, one’s capacity to deserve a reward or a punishment.

The morality of an act is the capacity of the actor to deserve a reward or punishment? I suppose this approach to morality, sin, the Fall, the Atonement, Heaven, Hell and general soteriology is at least consistent in its totally forensic nature. Big daddy in the sky punish you for breaking his command. Rather than by your own rotten heart and what comes out of it you stand in antithesis to God's essence, separated from him and facing him as does what is flammable a consuming fire, not by arbitrary law but by ontology.
 

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2017
  • Thanked: 2333 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2020, 11:31:29 AM »
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 

Offline Christina_S

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 548
  • Thanked: 514 times
  • Learning to love the will of God...
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2020, 01:27:28 PM »
.... what can you expect from a Pope?

Catholicism?
Pretty sad that "Is the Pope Catholic?" is becoming a real question  :huh:
"You cannot be a half-saint; you must be a whole saint or no saint at all." ~St. Therese of Lisieux

Check out my husband's blog! https://theromanticcatholic.wordpress.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, Michael Wilson, lauermar

Offline The Theosist

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 411
  • Thanked: 214 times
  • Religion: Christian
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2020, 02:41:14 PM »
.... what can you expect from a Pope?

Catholicism?
Pretty sad that "Is the Pope Catholic?" is becoming a real question  :huh:

 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6841
  • Thanked: 4929 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2020, 03:01:43 PM »
.... what can you expect from a Pope?

Catholicism?
Pretty sad that "Is the Pope Catholic?" is becoming a real question  :huh:

It became one long ago, past tense.  ;)

Addressing this point, however, and the encyclical itself:
It became clear to me a couple of years into his papacy that this pope is bored with the traditional job description of a pope. He's not interested in it. His communications, as well as his style, all say that. That doesn't mean that he doesn't privately believe orthodox Catholicism, although I understand why we have logical reason to question that.  But he doesn't see his role as one which even necessarily starts with proclaiming the faith.  I agree that such a position, if true, is controversial in itself. I'm just saying that -- although I don't think this helps Catholics in the slightest -- he sees his role/mission as communicating with non-Catholics primarily (Brazilians, Argentinians, migrants, atheists, Muslims, polytheists/pagans, "former" Catholics living in adultery or sodomy, etc.).
 

Offline Christina_S

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 548
  • Thanked: 514 times
  • Learning to love the will of God...
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2020, 03:27:49 PM »
Agreed, Miriam_M!

As my husband puts it, Francis is so busy seeking the "people on the margins" that his own children are suffering from hunger and cold and neglect. He sluffs off the dignity and responsibility of his office to show off how humble he can be. The term "parish orphans" gets more and more relatable with every headline about this pope.
"You cannot be a half-saint; you must be a whole saint or no saint at all." ~St. Therese of Lisieux

Check out my husband's blog! https://theromanticcatholic.wordpress.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: Jayne, Michael Wilson

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6841
  • Thanked: 4929 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2020, 03:29:38 PM »
Agreed, Miriam_M!

As my husband puts it, Francis is so busy seeking the "people on the margins" that his own children are suffering from hunger and cold and neglect. He sluffs off the dignity and responsibility of his office to show off how humble he can be. The term "parish orphans" gets more and more relatable with every headline about this pope.

Your husband is very insightful.
 :)
 

Offline Christina_S

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 548
  • Thanked: 514 times
  • Learning to love the will of God...
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2020, 12:26:40 PM »
Agreed, Miriam_M!

As my husband puts it, Francis is so busy seeking the "people on the margins" that his own children are suffering from hunger and cold and neglect. He sluffs off the dignity and responsibility of his office to show off how humble he can be. The term "parish orphans" gets more and more relatable with every headline about this pope.

Your husband is very insightful.
 :)
That's why I married him  ;)

Really though, I saw a trad on Facebook compare this document with Rerum Novarum, saying they're not that different! Um, the Freemasons agree with Fratelli Tutti far more than with Rerum Novarum, and if that doesn't raise some red flags, I dunno what will.
"You cannot be a half-saint; you must be a whole saint or no saint at all." ~St. Therese of Lisieux

Check out my husband's blog! https://theromanticcatholic.wordpress.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3595
  • Thanked: 3858 times
  • Hopeful Fatalist
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2020, 08:12:41 PM »
"[St.]Francis did not wage a war of words aimed at imposing doctrines"

Didn't he walk across hot coals to prove the magnificence of Christianity vs. the false Mohammedan sect? And won converts?

Despite being a popular claim, no early accounts of St. Francis' meeting with Sultan Al-Kamil feature any walking over hot coals.

The Poverello certainly hoped for martyrdom when he went over to the Muslim camp but he was welcomed instead as a guest, leaving it untouched and unharmed. Al-Kamil was acknowledged, even by his foes, as a pious man. For instance, after having defeated the Crusader army, the Sultan supplied them with food: "Who could doubt that such goodness, friendship and charity come from God? Men whose parents, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, had died in agony at our hands, whose lands we took, whom we drove naked from their homes, revived us with their own food when we were dying of hunger and showered us with kindness even when we were in their power." (Oliverus Scholasticus)

St. Francis mission was evangelical in intent but ended up as a diplomatic encounter.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 10:46:09 PM by Vetus Ordo »
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: Prayerful, Fleur-de-Lys

Offline Heinrich

  • Steig mal auf den Berg hinauf
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8395
  • Thanked: 3398 times
  • Gott, wende Dich zu uns und gib uns neues Leben
  • Religion: römisch-katholisch
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2020, 09:16:45 PM »
Despite being a popular claim, no early accounts of St. Francis' meeting with Sultan Al-Kamil feature any walking over hot coals.

Cite reputable source, please. Not a muslim one.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
The following users thanked this post: Greg

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3595
  • Thanked: 3858 times
  • Hopeful Fatalist
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2020, 10:45:22 PM »
Despite being a popular claim, no early accounts of St. Francis' meeting with Sultan Al-Kamil feature any walking over hot coals.

Cite reputable source, please. Not a muslim one.

The episode of the trial by fire is not mentioned in the earliest accounts by Jacques de Vitry or in the earliest official life of Francis by Thomas of Celano. In The Friar and the Sultan: Francis of Assisi's Mission to Egypt, Dr. John Tolan recounts:

The earliest texts that mention this encounter are from chroniclers of the fifth crusade: Jacques de Vitry and the anonymous author of what has been erroneously entitled La Chronique d'Ernoul. Both authors affirm that Francis did indeed go to the crusader camp at Damietta, crossed over to the enemy camp, and spoke with al-Kâmil, who received him graciously and who then gave him a safe conduct back to the crusader camp. Thomas of Celano embellishes the incident in his Vita prima in 1228. Francis died in 1226; in 1227 the cardinal Ugolino, who had long been one of the poverello's most ardent supporters, became Pope Gregory IX. The new pope opened the canonization process for Francis in June, 1228 and solemnly presided over his canonization in July of the same year. A canonized saint needs an authorized biography, and Gregory appointed Franciscan friar Thomas of Celano to compose a biography of the new saint. The result, the Vita prima, was meant to demonstrate that Francis was indeed worthy of veneration as a saint, that he corresponded to the canons of sanctity well established by earlier saints' lives. Moreover, since Francis and his Friars professed a return to the apostolic life (vita apostolica), it was all the more essential to show how Francis indeed corresponded to the model of the apostles.

The apostles had first and foremost been missionaries, spreaders of the Word to infidels, and most of them had suffered martyrdom as a result of their mission. This was not lost on Thomas, who affirms that Francis 'longed to attain the height of perfection,' that he was 'burning intensely with the desire for holy martyrdom.' For this reason he embarked in 1212 for the holy land, 'to preach the Christian faith and penance to the Saracens and infidels.' Kept from reaching this goal by shipwreck, he later set out for Morocco in hopes of winning a martyr's crown there. Then, in 1219, Francis 'journeyed to the region of Syria,' says Thomas, where 'bitter and long battles were being waged daily between Christians and pagans.' Note the geographical vagueness: the crusaders were besieging Damietta in the Nile delta, but Thomas places these events in 'Syria.' He says that Francis was seized and beaten by the Saracens troops (although the crusader chroniclers, no doubt better informed, said nothing of this). Then he was brought before the sultan, who received him courteously: indeed, he tried to tempt him with the offer of precious gifts, which Francis scorned 'like dung.' At this, the sultan was filled with admiration 'and recognized him as a man unlike any other. He was moved by his words and listened to him very willingly. In all this, however, the Lord did not fulfill his desire, reserving for him the prerogative of a unique grace.' For Thomas as for other Franciscan hagiographers of the 13th century, it is the saint's 'thirst for martyrdom' that drove him to seek out the sultan. Francis, after all, tried to live the apostolic life, and it was natural for him to wish to die an apostolic death: martyrdom at the hands of infidels. The fact that Thomas calls the Muslims 'pagans' highlights this parallel. From this point of view, however, Francis' mission was an embarrassing failure: he succeeded neither in converting the sultan nor in obtaining the much-desired martyr's palm. Thomas explains this by saying that God has something special in store for the saint, a 'unique grace.' This 'unique grace', it later becomes clear, is the stigmata.

(...)

For Bonaventure, 'Seraphic Doctor', minister general of the Franciscan order from 1257 until his death in 1274, the ardent thirst for martyrdom played a key role in Franciscan spirituality. It was the highest form of love: at once a longing for union with God and a desire to bring the souls of infidels to Him. Bonaventure's Legenda maior, which became the order's official biography of its founding saint, insists on the burning desire for martyrdom which drove Francis East. Bonaventure takes up and expands upon Thomas of Celano's version of Francis' series of failed attempts to obtain the crown of martyrdom from the Saracens. He embellishes the interview with al-Kâmil, having Francis propose an ordeal: he and the sultan's 'priests' would enter into a fire; he who came out unscathed would have proven that he followed God's true law. When the Saracen priests refuse, Francis urges the sultan to light a fire anyway; he wants to enter the flames alone. The sultan refuses, fearing lest he provoke a revolt among his people. Francis then rejects the gifts that the sultan offers him, the sultan, 'overflowing with admiration, developed an even greater respect for him.' Since the sultan did not wish or did not dare to convert, Bonaventure concludes, Francis left him. Bonaventure makes even more explicit Thomas' explanation for the failure of Francis' mission: God had greater things in store for the saint, the stigmata.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, in keeping with historical sobriety, makes no mention of said ordeal when describing the encounter with the sultan:

With eleven companions, including Brother Illuminato and Peter of Cattaneo, Francis set sail from Ancona on 21 June, for Saint-Jean d'Acre, and he was present at the siege and taking of Damietta. After preaching there to the assembled Christian forces, Francis fearlessly passed over to the infidel camp, where he was taken prisoner and led before the sultan. According to the testimony of Jacques de Vitry, who was with the crusaders at Damietta, the sultan received Francis with courtesy, but beyond obtaining a promise from this ruler of more indulgent treatment for the Christian captives, the saint's preaching seems to have effected little.

The failure of St. Francis' mission is quietly admitted by all sources, even the later ones which wildly embellished the events they were not privy of. The trial by fire is certainly an invention without any historical value that St. Bonaventure added to the official biography.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: Fleur-de-Lys

Offline Heinrich

  • Steig mal auf den Berg hinauf
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8395
  • Thanked: 3398 times
  • Gott, wende Dich zu uns und gib uns neues Leben
  • Religion: römisch-katholisch
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2020, 11:39:34 AM »
Citing de Vitry, de Selano, Talon: Didn't happen. In effect, proposing St. Bonaventure lied. Not buying what you are selling. That you know of these things and can find them, props. But not all history as written is as such.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3595
  • Thanked: 3858 times
  • Hopeful Fatalist
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2020, 07:44:13 PM »
Citing de Vitry, de Selano, Talon: Didn't happen. In effect, proposing St. Bonaventure lied. Not buying what you are selling. That you know of these things and can find them, props. But not all history as written is as such.

I'm not selling anything, I'm stating historiographical facts.

St. Bonaventure didn't have malicious intent. Hagiographies have little historical value, they're teleological narratives. It was common to embellish the lives of saints with oral legends, Christian history is full of examples like that. There wasn't a general concern for historical accuracy and often they didn't even have the means to do so. It was more important to portray moral lessons than to verify and criticize sources.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: Fleur-de-Lys

Offline lauermar

  • "Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy night!" from 'All About Eve' (1950).
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1291
  • Thanked: 414 times
  • Baby Boomer
  • Religion: Sedevacantist in training
Re: New Encyclical: FRATELLI TUTTI
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2020, 06:42:26 AM »
Spanish Freemason media gives full support to the Tutti Frutti document. https://infovaticana.com/2020/10/05/los-masones-fratelli-tutti-demuestra-lo-lejos-que-esta-la-actual-iglesia-catolica-de-sus-antiguas-posiciones/

An observation of the evolution of the Catholic church by Freemasons:

Three hundred years ago, the birth of Modern Freemasonry took place. The great principle of this initiatory school has not changed in three centuries: the construction of a universal fraternity where human beings call each other brothers beyond their specific creeds, ideologies, skin color, social background, language, culture or nationality. This fraternal dream clashed with the religious fundamentalism that, in the case of the Catholic Church, led to harsh texts condemning tolerance of Freemasonry in the nineteenth century. The latest encyclical of Pope Francis shows how far the current Catholic Church is from its former positions. In ‘Fratelli Tutti’, the Pope embraces the Universal Fraternity, the great principle of Modern Freemasonry.

(Source; translated using DeepL.com; underlining added.)

https://mailchi.mp/gle/eloriente169-938721-8m0qlkm9r6-939922
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 06:48:00 AM by lauermar »
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson