Author Topic: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer  (Read 2755 times)

Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2020, 12:12:46 AM »
Pope Francis vs. other Popes (and the SSPX incidentally) https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/pope-francis-considers-virgin%E2%80%99s-title-co-redemptrix-%E2%80%9Cfoolishness%E2%80%9D-53579

Do people on the forum know individual traditionalist priests who argue against the title Co-Redemptrix, and teach their flock to never use it?  Or is it mostly theologians and forums who argue about it these days?

Wikipedia notes
Quote
it is not included in the concluding chapter of the apostolic constitution Lumen gentium of the Second Vatican Council, which chapter many theologians hold to be a comprehensive summary of Roman Catholic Mariology.
   Is that supposed to prove something to us - being left out of Vatican II? /sarc

Protestants are wrong that Catholics worship Mary.  Or have Saints and Popes for years proven that they are right after all by using this title and other devotions that some here find excessive?

I'm inclined to believe in the title because of its long usage and support by Saints and Popes I most respect - following Catholic Traditionalism.

I don't have the theology or devotion deep in my head or heart, but I think there is mystery even in how WE are able to unite our suffering with that of Our Lord.
 
St. Paul said of himself that
Quote from: Colossians I
][24] I...now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
[24] comment "Wanting": There is no want in the sufferings of Christ in himself as head: but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come, in his body the church, and his members the faithful.

How much more can the sufferings of Christ's own Mother and Mother of the Church work together with, without diminishing, the infinite sufferings of Christ?




[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2020, 12:23:58 AM »
Fr. Joseph Pohle, A Dogmatic Treatise On The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother Of God, Imprimatur, 1919:

"… it would be wrong to call her [Mary] redemptrix, because this title obscures the important truth that she herself was redeemed through the merits of Jesus Christ by what theologians technically term preredemption. Even the title coredemptrix had better be avoided as misleading. The titles redemptrix and coredemptrix were never applied to the Blessed Virgin before the sixteenth century; they are the invention of comparatively recent writers…"

St. Paul said of himself that
Quote from: Colossians I
][24] I...now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
[24] comment "Wanting": There is no want in the sufferings of Christ in himself as head: but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come, in his body the church, and his members the faithful.

How much more can the sufferings of Christ's own Mother and Mother of the Church work together with, without diminishing, the infinite sufferings of Christ?

The title of Co-Redemptrix does not mean that the Blessed Virgin is in a category along with the other saints cooperating with the work of redemption, being as it were a co-redeemer in the same way St. Paul teaches in Colossians 1:24 that you just quoted. Rather, the title of Co-Redemptrix is that the Blessed Virgin is in a unique category with Christ as the redeemer – a category which does not include St. Paul or any other saint. Therefore, one cannot try to substantiate the title of Co-Redemptrix by appealing to how other saints participate in the work of redemption under the one sole redeemer of the human race, Jesus Christ. That’s fallacious.
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Offline The Theosist

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2020, 05:25:17 AM »
Pope Francis vs. other Popes (and the SSPX incidentally) https://fsspx.news/en/news-even
St. Paul said of himself that
Quote from: Colossians I
][24] I...now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
[24] comment "Wanting": There is no want in the sufferings of Christ in himself as head: but many sufferings are still wanting, or are still to come, in his body the church, and his members the faithful.

How much more can the sufferings of Christ's own Mother and Mother of the Church work together with, without diminishing, the infinite sufferings of Christ?

This is clear-cut eisegesis. Where does Paul here connect this personal suffering with the actual redemptive work of Jesus death and resurrection? He doesn't. You're citing this passage in a sense that isn't expressed or implied by the text itself.

And another thing: it also presupposes a post-Anselmian doctrine of atonement, that Jesus' sufferings made satisfaction for a debt owed to God. There is no way this thing is "Apostolic tradition".
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 05:37:00 AM by The Theosist »
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2020, 09:04:29 AM »
His Holiness Pope Leo XIII: "The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our Co-Redemptress [or Co-Redemptrix] comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/teachings/leo-xiiis-iucunda-semper-expectatione-on-the-rosary-133

His Holiness Pope St. Pius X: " Hence that uninterrupted community of life and labors of the Son and the Mother, so that of both might have been uttered the words of the Psalmist"My life is consumed in sorrow and my years in groans" (Ps xxx., 11). When the supreme hour of the Son came, beside the Cross of Jesus there stood Mary His Mother, not merely occupied in contemplating the cruel spectacle, but rejoicing that her Only Son was offered for the salvation of mankind, and so entirely participating in His Passion, that if it had been possible she would have gladly borne all the torments that her Son bore (S. Bonav. 1. Sent d. 48, ad Litt. dub. 4). And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world (Eadmeri Mon. De Excellentia Virg. Mariae, c. 9) and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood." http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-...x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum.html

Reparatrix is another equivalent word for Co-Redemptrix. And Dispensatrix is likewise an equivalent word for Mediatrix. Mary is Dispensatrix/Mediatrix of All Graces. And She is this now in Heaven because, on Earth, at the foot of the Cross especially, by Her tears, labors, dolors and sorrows with the Crucified Christ, She was CoRedemptrix.

His Holiness Pope John Paul II: "Birgitta looked to Mary as her model and support in the various moments of her life. She spoke energetically about the divine privilege of Mary's Immaculate Conception. She contemplated her astonishing mission as Mother of the Saviour. She invoked her as the Immaculate Conception, Our Lady of Sorrows, and Coredemptrix, exalting Mary's singular role in the history of salvation and the life of the Christian people. [60]" https://www.piercedhearts.org/heart...ry/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm

Our Lady most certainly is Co-Redemptrix, and many Saints and Mystics have told us the Church will define this one day.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 09:06:52 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2020, 10:09:53 AM »
The B.V.M. Is both the Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; end of argument.


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Offline The Theosist

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2020, 10:47:16 AM »
Our Lady most certainly is Co-Redemptrix, and many Saints and Mystics have told us the Church will define this one day.

Speaking of the prophecies of your mystics, tick ,tock ...

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24300.msg508131#msg508131
 

Online mikemac

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2020, 01:54:15 PM »
The title of this thread is "Mary is not the Co-Redeemer", which has been proven false a few different times in this thread so far.  Popes have recognized Mary as Coredemptrix.  Michael was correct in the first reply in this thread when he said "The B.V.M. Is both the Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; end of argument."

And that should have been the end of the argument, other than defining the meaning of Coredemptrix.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline The Theosist

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2020, 02:05:13 PM »
The title of this thread is "Mary is not the Co-Redeemer", which has been proven false a few different times in this thread so far.  Popes have recognized Mary as Coredemptrix.  Michael was correct in the first reply in this thread when he said "The B.V.M. Is both the Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; end of argument."

And that should have been the end of the argument, other than defining the meaning of Coredemptrix.

This definition from Trent ought to have been the end of the argument:

This holy Council enjoins on all bishops and others who are charged with teaching, that they instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints, the honor paid to relics, and the legitimate use of images. Let them teach that the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers and aid in obtaining benefits from God, through his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our sole Redeemer and Saviour; and that those persons think impiously who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert that the saints do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us individually is idolatry; or who declare that it is repugnant to the word of God, and opposed to the honor of the "one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus," or that it is foolish to supplicate, orally or mentally, those who reign in heaven.

Sole redeemer. There it is: sole.

But if you want to appeal to the use of terms by popes to declare Roma locuta est, then unless you're a Sedevacantist you ought rightly to shut up about the Novus Ordo liturgy and everything concerning Vatican II which has been used ad nauseam by five popes for the last 50-60 years. Or you can be a logically inconsistent hypocrite engaging in special pleading, but then the argument really is over, because people like that can't be reasoned with, having left reason at the door.

If Mary were ever dogmatically declared "Co-Redemptrix" in the usually-understood sense, it would have proved just one thing: that Rome could no longer pretend all her dogmas and doctrines are part of an "Apostolic tradition", because the Co-Redemptrix waffle is demonstrably, beyond any doubt, not Biblical, not Apostolic and not Patristic but a post-millennial Western innovation.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 02:11:26 PM by The Theosist »
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2020, 02:19:59 PM »
The title of this thread is "Mary is not the Co-Redeemer", which has been proven false a few different times in this thread so far.  Popes have recognized Mary as Coredemptrix.  Michael was correct in the first reply in this thread when he said "The B.V.M. Is both the Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; end of argument."

And that should have been the end of the argument, other than defining the meaning of Coredemptrix.

It is a slam dunk. Why the discussion?
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Offline The Theosist

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2020, 02:22:13 PM »
The title of this thread is "Mary is not the Co-Redeemer", which has been proven false a few different times in this thread so far.  Popes have recognized Mary as Coredemptrix.  Michael was correct in the first reply in this thread when he said "The B.V.M. Is both the Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix; end of argument."

And that should have been the end of the argument, other than defining the meaning of Coredemptrix.

It is a slam dunk. Why the discussion?

Why discuss Vatican II's teachings and declarations then? How is citing Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis I not a slam dunk by the same criterion?
 

Online mikemac

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2020, 02:39:49 PM »
Neither Pope Leo XIII or Pope St. Pius X were post VII popes but they both refereed to Mary as Coredemptrix.

Quote
According to those who use the term, Co-Redemptrix refers to a subordinate but essential participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption, notably that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, which meant sharing his life, suffering, and death, which were redemptive for the world. Related to this belief is the concept of Mary as Mediatrix, which is a separate concept but regularly included by Catholics who use the title Co-Redemptrix.

The concept was especially common in the late Middle Ages, when it was promoted heavily among the Franciscans, and often resisted by the Dominicans. By the early 16th century the hopes of the concept becoming Catholic doctrine had receded, and have never seriously revived. In more recent times, the title has received some support from the Catholic Magisterium[2] though it is not included in the concluding chapter of the apostolic constitution Lumen gentium of the Second Vatican Council, which chapter many theologians hold to be a comprehensive summary of Roman Catholic Mariology. Some, in particular the adherents of the Amsterdam visions, have petitioned for a dogmatic definition, along with Mediatrix,[3] and the process for further theological clarification and eventual dogmatic definition is ongoing. Pope St. John Paul II was the most favorable of recent Popes.

I doubt Coredemptrix will ever become a dogma of the Church while characters like Mark Miravalle try to make the meaning more than it actually is.

Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2020, 03:33:35 PM »
Under the fourth commandment Mary still had authority over our Lord. 

In her grief theoretically she freely could have insisted that He put down the Cross and abandon His Passion and Crucifixion.  He would have been obliged to obey her.

She knew what and why He was going through in His Salvific act and still allowed Him to follow through with it against her human and parental instincts. 

There is an interesting dynamic at work concerning Jesus' Divine and human parentage in view of the Passion. 

Jesus doesn't want to be crucified or suffer (who would) He asks the Father to let the cup pass Him by.  The answer is "no."

Jesus' mother doesn't want Him to be crucified or suffer but she freely subordinates her will to His will just as He subordinates His will to the Father. 

She FREELY cooperates with the Holy Trinity with her fiat at the Annunciation.  At the Passion and Crucifixion, she does what Abraham was asked to do and was willing to do. 

Her fiat allowed Him to be born and her fiat allowed Him to give His life.  Simply put, she had the option to say "no" and put a stop to it, her participation is passive but real in His redemptive act.   

We can also add that simply because of who she is, she is actually the only one really worthy of saving.  We would be saved by Mercy and she would really be saved in Justice.   Now, everything sort of loops around at that point because she is who she is by the merit of Christ's passion in Eternity.  So He understands that His passion is necessary for her existence in the first place. 

That is the only acceptable meaning to Co-Redemptrix  I can think of that can be tolerated. 

With that stated, the level of catechesis and understanding in the world between all non-Catholics and far too many Catholics that have moved into idolization of the BVM.   It is not the time to give her a title like that.  Titles are supposed to clarify.  Nowadays this would only create or supplement confusion.

 
 
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Offline truly-a-philosofan

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2020, 03:39:09 PM »
Has anyone already given the definition of Co-Redemptrix? If so, how does this reconcile with the passages from Trent and Florence on Christ being our sole Redeemer?
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2020, 04:05:25 PM »

St. Paul said of himself that
Quote from: Colossians I
][24] I...now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
[24] comment "Wanting"

This is an often-misunderstood passage from Paul.
 

Offline The Theosist

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Re: Mary is not the Co-Redeemer
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2020, 04:52:23 PM »
Has anyone already given the definition of Co-Redemptrix? If so, how does this reconcile with the passages from Trent and Florence on Christ being our sole Redeemer?

Any statement can be reconciled with any other if you just give enough of a twist to the meanings of words.
 
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