Author Topic: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture  (Read 756 times)

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2020, 01:58:46 PM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.
 
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2020, 02:05:49 PM »
I strongly underline 'less heretical than usual.' The occasion of the letter could have given to some genuinely Catholic thought on the role of the Vulgate, but after recounting St Jerome's life, it just represents Trent as saying the Vulgate is 'really important,' which is pointless as it's important to Protestants even given its key role on resolving the biblical canon. Perhaps that's what Francis is saying by implication. It isn't Fratres Tutti nonsensical, but SCRIPTURAE SACRAE AFFECTUS is so lacking any substance in spite of all its nice words on St Jerome. Still it is clear in a way, which makes it likely the work of some Vatican official to which Francis gave his impatient signature, while he shakes down bishops over the phone to refill the missing 20 mil.

Yes, I suppose it could have been worse.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2020, 05:12:11 PM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

There's ignorance.

And then there's the level of "your point of view...[on translation]...is a Judaic one." That's the level of irredeemable paranoia.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2020, 08:09:25 PM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

Is your Isabella of Portugal portrait and Vetus's Charles V picture indicative of a relationship between the two of you?
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2020, 08:14:49 PM »
Sorry if I misunderstand him, but I think what Santantonio was alluding to is the fact that the gospel of Matthew (the one we have, which is written in Greek) is a translation of a lost original (which was written in "Hebrew"). So if translations are inherently problematic, then it seems the gospel of Matthew is problematic, since it's a translation.

But I disagree. The translator (who may have been Matthew himself) is believed to have been inspired while translating it. So the Greek version is inspired.

edit - I think the book of Job was like that too--originally composed in ancient Arabian, and then translated into Hebrew. The translation was inspired though, so it's good.

But it's quite obvious that translations in general are problematic. In almost every case something is lost when translating from one language to another. Literal translations might retain the idioms but lose out on the wordplay or rhythm. Non-literal translations are even worse since those translation reflect the translator's interpretation of the text rather than the text itself.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 08:29:58 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline The Theosist

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2020, 04:40:03 AM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

Is your Isabella of Portugal portrait and Vetus's Charles V picture indicative of a relationship between the two of you?

Rather cringe, isn’t it?
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2020, 02:19:30 PM »
Sorry if I misunderstand him, but I think what Santantonio was alluding to is the fact that the gospel of Matthew (the one we have, which is written in Greek) is a translation of a lost original (which was written in "Hebrew"). So if translations are inherently problematic, then it seems the gospel of Matthew is problematic, since it's a translation.

But I disagree. The translator (who may have been Matthew himself) is believed to have been inspired while translating it. So the Greek version is inspired.

edit - I think the book of Job was like that too--originally composed in ancient Arabian, and then translated into Hebrew. The translation was inspired though, so it's good.

But it's quite obvious that translations in general are problematic. In almost every case something is lost when translating from one language to another. Literal translations might retain the idioms but lose out on the wordplay or rhythm. Non-literal translations are even worse since those translation reflect the translator's interpretation of the text rather than the text itself.

Since the original texts are lost forever, any authoritative text that we have of the Scriptures today is a translation or a copy. This is inescapable.

However, this shouldn't be an insurmountable problem given that the phenomenon of revelation was first and foremost an oral reality (preaching) with physical implications (building of communities in the Mediterranean basin). The oral tradition should have been able to verify the written tradition and vice-versa. That's the assumption we have to make, there's no way to conclusively prove it. It's an educated assumption given the historical data that we have (scriptures, fathers of the church, early writings, etc.).
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline Alnitak

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2020, 03:39:55 PM »
The textual tradition of the Bible is a complicated matter. The oldest surviving manuscripts of the NT are from the 4th century. We also have some earlier fragments, I believe.

Most of the original text can only be guessed at from what we have and what the Fathers of the Church quoted in their day. The best the Church can hope for is to provide authoritative versions of the texts. The Vulgate is one of them but there's no reason to think modern translations per se can't be as authoritative.
The oldest surviving complete NT is most likely to come from the 4th century (Codexes Siniaticus and Vaticanus especially), but we have a large fragment tradition going back to the 2nd century. Very few of the variants are significant in meaning or occur in a large number of early manuscripts. Textual criticism is a science that the Fathers engaged in as well, and nowadays it can establish with quite a degree of certainty what the original text was. The New Testament is hundreds of times better attested than any other ancient text. An example of this is the NA28 edition: it showed that 2/3 of the verses in the NT lack any important variants.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 04:37:33 PM by Alnitak »
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2020, 11:30:40 PM »
Speaking of translation problems, here's an interesting take at the famous pericope adulteræ of the Gospel of John:

In the Communist Bible Translation, Jesus Stones the Woman

Quote
But the new translation replaces the next part, in which Jesus says “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Instead, the revised standard Communist version says this:

When the crowd disappeared, Jesus stoned the sinner to death saying, “I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.”

Although the pericope is absent from our earliest manuscripts, this is the sort of reconstructionism that should be avoided.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2020, 05:03:36 AM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

Is your Isabella of Portugal portrait and Vetus's Charles V picture indicative of a relationship between the two of you?

Rather cringe, isn’t it?

I know, right? Why pick Charles V? Although his jawline destroys mine, his entire reign was characterized by widespread debt and inflation.

Should've been more clever and picked Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, the marriage which essentially formed the Kingdom of Spain.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 05:06:23 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2020, 11:12:26 AM »

Is your Isabella of Portugal portrait and Vetus's Charles V picture indicative of a relationship between the two of you?

Rather cringe, isn’t it?

I know, right? Why pick Charles V? Although his jawline destroys mine, his entire reign was characterized by widespread debt and inflation.

Should've been more clever and picked Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon, the marriage which essentially formed the Kingdom of Spain.

You really should read more, Live, if you think Charles V's significance is limited to his jawline.
 
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Offline truly-a-philosofan

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2020, 11:29:52 AM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

Is your Isabella of Portugal portrait and Vetus's Charles V picture indicative of a relationship between the two of you?

Rather cringe, isn’t it?

Their son, Philip II, was responsible for not giving up the propagation of the Gospel in the Philippines, for which I am grateful for. And may God’s grace enable me to never lose this gratitude.
For the evil of the soul, its own will takes the initiative; but for its good, the will of its Creator makes the first move; whether to make the soul which did not yet exist, or to recreate it when it had perished through its fall.

St. Augustine, City of God XIII:15
 
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Offline truly-a-philosofan

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2020, 11:32:47 AM »
Speaking of translation problems, here's an interesting take at the famous pericope adulteræ of the Gospel of John:

In the Communist Bible Translation, Jesus Stones the Woman

Quote
But the new translation replaces the next part, in which Jesus says “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Instead, the revised standard Communist version says this:

When the crowd disappeared, Jesus stoned the sinner to death saying, “I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.”

Although the pericope is absent from our earliest manuscripts, this is the sort of reconstructionism that should be avoided.

There’s an argument for the pericope being originally from the Gospel of Luke.
For the evil of the soul, its own will takes the initiative; but for its good, the will of its Creator makes the first move; whether to make the soul which did not yet exist, or to recreate it when it had perished through its fall.

St. Augustine, City of God XIII:15
 

Offline Santantonio

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2020, 06:08:38 PM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

Then since you feel the most faithful to the original should be used at all times, I'm sure you read the New American Bible which is the most faithful to the original version of the Old Testament Catholic translation, more so than the DR and the Vulgate.
 

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Pope Releases Apostolic Letter on Sacred Scripture
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2020, 07:04:38 PM »
No translation, no matter how well-intentioned or how skillfully done, can ever fully capture the original. That is especially problematic when dealing with something as important as Sacred Scripture. The great variety among vernacular translations should be a cause for concern, not celebration. But hey, what else can you really expect from this pope?

If that were true, the Gospel of Matthew itself would be 'problematic', but it's not. Your point of view is not a Catholic one, but rather it is a Judaic one. I say Judaic because it was exclusively the reactionary rabbis, those who espoused the idiotic and suicidal rebellions against Roman rule that caused their own utter destruction - who refused to accept Hellenisation. This was also, later a root cause of the Protestant rebelion, as Luther refused to include the Alexandrian Canon in his scaled-down version of Scripture.

My "point of view" is linguistic. Translation is tricky. This observation should be uncontroversial. Since your ensuing rant doesn't even pertain to translation, I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

Then since you feel the most faithful to the original should be used at all times, I'm sure you read the New American Bible which is the most faithful to the original version of the Old Testament Catholic translation, more so than the DR and the Vulgate.

I made no such statement. Indeed this entire exchange has been a great illustration of how poorly words often manage to convey meaning.
 
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