Author Topic: Usury  (Read 895 times)

Offline Innocent Smith

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1114
  • Thanked: 626 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Usury
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2020, 05:16:53 PM »
Look, it's a real problem.  But to argue that everyone has to convert to Catholicism and then the Church must outlaw usury is ridiculous.

What needs to happen is wages have to increase to the level that is necessary for a semi-talented man to be able to earn the amount of money he needs in support of the family God wants him to have and head-up.  And by that I mean talent equal to salary is the goal.  I'm not talking about welfare. 

Loan sharking via Pay Day Loans should immediately be shut down. 

I suppose some type of credit squeeze would be needed for companies to rely on human resources to make money rather than return on funny money. 
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3011
  • Thanked: 771 times
Re: Usury
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2020, 06:05:28 PM »
.
 

Offline Greg

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13673
  • Thanked: 8108 times
Re: Usury
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2020, 04:02:33 AM »
Pay day loans are priced for the risk.

Pay day lending is not very profitable.  Many lenders have gone bust.

What you are saying is that only low risk borrowers should be able to borrow.  Higher risk people should have no access to credit.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 07:14:16 AM by Greg »
 

Offline Innocent Smith

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1114
  • Thanked: 626 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Usury
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2020, 07:04:55 AM »
Pay day loans are priced for the risk.

Pay day lending is not very profitable.  Many lender have gone bust.

What you are saying is that only low risk borrowers should be able to borrow.  Higher risk people should have no access to credit.

I think that's right, Greg.  Thanks. 

I don't think anyone should even get a mortgage without putting down 20%.  And even 20% is nothing. 

There was a time before PMI in which you had to cough up 20 percent.  Looking back, this may have been the moment it all went bad.  When the idea of Private Mortgage Insurance was introduced and/or over used to the point of being the normal operating procedure in buying a place to live for most people.  How else can most buy a home with car loans and lots of other debts to service including student loans?

Just like the introduction of the credit card for everyday use to supplement low wages in an inflationary economy. 

Seriously, what's the point of being pre-qualified if all you are really doing is trying to find ways to load on more debt?
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.
 

Offline Greg

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13673
  • Thanked: 8108 times
Re: Usury
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2020, 07:20:06 AM »
In a global market how would you stop Chinese, Singaporean, Swiss people borrowing money in an unregulated way and outbidding Americans who could only borrow 4 times what they had saved by local US laws?

You'd end up with Americans paying rent to non-US landlords who would use it to pay off their low-interest mortgages held overseas.

Regulations and governments trying to do "the right thing" often results in the wrong thing.

Look at the clowns in the hierarchy trying to "protect people" from Covid-19 by stopping masses and communions at mass.

Let adults be adults and borrow and lend as they choose provided they don't do so fraudulently.  Fairness in lending is good.  Capping lending results in all sorts of unintended mess.
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3011
  • Thanked: 771 times
Re: Usury
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2020, 07:49:50 AM »
If we're talking about fantasy worlds, I'd count the problem solved if everyone simply became Catholic. [edit - I mean really Catholic. Not just nominally Catholic.]

Second to that, get rid of the global market, big business, non-localized government, etc. And especially, get rid of college degrees (or, at least get rid of the practice of using college degrees for the purpose of employment screening).
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3011
  • Thanked: 771 times
Re: Usury
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2020, 08:40:04 AM »
Back on topic...

Yes.  You structure the contract as a profit-sharing arrangement.  A company borrows money and builds a plant.  The lender gets a share of the profits from the plant.  In this example the interest is from production, and not from the use of money.

Case 2:  You loan money to the government to pay money to welfare queens.  The source of the payment you receive as the lender is what?  This is usury.

Ultimately usury is a sin because it offends the virtue of prudence.  And it is very destructive as we are currently witnessing.

Another example of usury is borrowing money to do stock buy-backs.

Ok, I see. I wouldn't really call the first case "interest" though. Maybe it's just semantics, but I usually think of "interest" as a pre-determined percentage that gets compounded monthly or continuously according to standard formulas. (Which I suppose by definition would be "usury".)

Or, sometimes I think of "interest" as a way of compensating for inflation or changes in the money's buying power. (Such that $1.00 borrowed in 1913 ought to be paid back as $26.25 today, according to this inflation calculator. You pay back the $1.00 along with $25.25 of interest that has accumulated over the past 107 years. Not sure if this would be considered "usury" or not, but intuitively it seems fair: what you borrowed in 1913 was certainly worth a lot more than $1.00 of today's currency. Seems the borrower should pay back more than just $1.00, even if no such agreement was ever made.)

What you describe seems more like a private business arrangement between the two parties. The lender would need access to the borrower's business records, and the money owed would be determinable only after revenue has been generated. Not that it's a bad idea though.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 08:53:18 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3011
  • Thanked: 771 times
Re: Usury
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2020, 08:03:29 AM »
I was wondering, the practice of selling money: does this fall under usury?

e.g. I received a coin as a gift, which (I think) can technically be spent as currency (it has a face value of USD $1). But this coin is a "bullion coin", uncirculated, and has been graded, and could potentially be sold to coin collectors on eBay for $150 or $200. Would I be able to sell the coin and keep the extra money? (Does the fact that it is "bullion" make a difference? It's made of silver, and this amount of silver is easily worth more than $1 on the silver market).

Or, a better example: Suppose I have some ordinary money (coin or paper), which, because of the money's condition and year or some other factors, happens to have value to collectors. Is it ok to sell this money above its face value, and keep the extra?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 08:16:11 AM by Daniel »