Author Topic: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii  (Read 539 times)

Offline St.Justin

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vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« on: September 25, 2020, 09:37:53 PM »
https://catholicfamilynews.com/blog/2020/09/21/vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii/

The whole article is very good but I am interested in thoughts on this:

It isnít possible to change reality to make it correspond to an ideal schema. If the evidence shows that some propositions contained in the Council documents (and similarly, in the acts of Bergoglioís magisterium) are heterodox, and if doctrine teaches us that the acts of the Magisterium do not contain error, the conclusion is not that those propositions are not erroneous, but that they cannot be part of the Magisterium. Period.
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 10:18:20 AM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2020, 11:47:03 AM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

I knew you would like that.. He didn't clarify and I wonder why? I took it to mean "they cannot be part of the Magisterium" as in the body of teachings of the Church which is often I the term is used.
 
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2020, 01:06:22 PM »
As grace is not automatic, but depends on a person's submission, so freedom from error also depends on a man's submission to the Church and the Holy Ghost.  No ordained man is free to create new dogma that does not naturally develop from the old.  This is a central point of authentic Catholic theology and, of course, dogma. (Genuine dogma develops from Tradition, and did from the very beginning of the Church; it does not take off in a new direction, and it certainly is not an independent movement of a group of clergy or a single Pope.)  Clergy of every level are tasked with protecting the dogma of the Church, not discarding it or experimenting with new dogma or even with language that has no relationship to the language by which the faithful understand the abiding truths of Catholicism.

Ordained men, including popes, are not robots.  Our Lord Jesus Christ did not guarantee that He would infuse every successor of Peter with divine knowledge. I think that the Church's dogma on grace is not unrelated here.  It is de fide dogma that grace is available in all circumstances -- actual grace for those who seek God, actual grace for those in mortal sin -- to inspire them to seek Confession, and of course sanctifying grace for those who receive sacraments.  However, even sanctifying grace will have its limits when a man does not dispose himself properly, which means submissively. 

Several of Fr. Ripperger's sermons on Spiritual Protection speak of the problem of complacency (Pride), which, when unchecked, can leave us vulnerable to fall into grave sin because God may withhold His grace to allow us to fall into sin, because of our pride and (false) self-sufficiency.

While we don't know the previous spiritual states of the men who felt emboldened to experiment with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, this article -- which may seem off-topic -- is perhaps indirectly on topic.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2020/09/two-forms-of-roman-rite-liturgical-fact.html

In any case, the Church is still standing (the Gates of Hell have not prevailed), although all the prophecies of the (true) faith being retained and practiced by only a few (relatively) is already a fact. The Church is hanging by a thread because her leaders are hanging by a thread, and some of those leaders may be in very grave, persistent sin and even heresy, and if so, that would previously have blinded them to truth and still may be.  The Church fights heresy from within and without.
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2020, 01:20:50 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 01:45:46 PM by Vetus Ordo »
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2020, 06:27:46 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.

Seems you missed his answer. So here it is for you "the conclusion is not that those propositions are not erroneous, but that they cannot be part of the Magisterium. Period."
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2020, 06:30:39 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.

Seems you missed his answer. So here it is for you "the conclusion is not that those propositions are not erroneous, but that they cannot be part of the Magisterium. Period."

Unless Abp. ViganÚ has become a sedevacantist, thus holding that Vatican II and everything that came after it is the product of heretical usurpers, his conclusion means exactly what I've stated above.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 06:33:09 PM by Vetus Ordo »
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2020, 06:46:39 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.

Seems you missed his answer. So here it is for you "the conclusion is not that those propositions are not erroneous, but that they cannot be part of the Magisterium. Period."

Unless Abp. ViganÚ has become a sedevacantist, thus holding that Vatican II and everything that came after it is the product of heretical usurpers, his conclusion means exactly what I've stated above.

For a start he was only addressing the Council therefore the rest of your statement is not applicable. You seem to be reading things that aren't there.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2020, 08:34:32 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.

Seems you missed his answer. So here it is for you "the conclusion is not that those propositions are not erroneous, but that they cannot be part of the Magisterium. Period."

Unless Abp. ViganÚ has become a sedevacantist, thus holding that Vatican II and everything that came after it is the product of heretical usurpers, his conclusion means exactly what I've stated above.

For a start he was only addressing the Council therefore the rest of your statement is not applicable. You seem to be reading things that aren't there.

Even if it's just the Council, the conclusion is the same.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 08:47:34 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.

Seems you missed his answer. So here it is for you "the conclusion is not that those propositions are not erroneous, but that they cannot be part of the Magisterium. Period."

Unless Abp. ViganÚ has become a sedevacantist, thus holding that Vatican II and everything that came after it is the product of heretical usurpers, his conclusion means exactly what I've stated above.

For a start he was only addressing the Council therefore the rest of your statement is not applicable. You seem to be reading things that aren't there.

Even if it's just the Council, the conclusion is the same.

Don't think so. Did you read what he had to say?
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2020, 07:44:27 AM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?

It can't.

Hence why the Church turning back and saying "oops, forget about the past 60 years: the Council, the papal encyclicals, the new code of canon law, the new rites, the canonizations, etc., that was all tainted with heresy. We got swept away with the times and made a mistake but don't worry, it was all non-infallible anyway, we're good" would make the whole edifice of the religion collapse on its own given the sheer ridiculousness of the proposition.
This is why V.O. And I work from the same premise to different conclusions; If the Conciliar Church is the true Church, then Vatican II; the N.O.M. The Canonizations of J.P. II and a whole bunch of etc. etc. Are perfectly Catholic and have to be accepted; if it isn't then these are what they appear to be, productions that are false, heretical and harmful to souls and must be rejected by any Catholic who wishes to save his soul. That is why tradis are essentially (as many have said) ''practical sedes". They accept the premises without accepting the conclusions.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2020, 02:51:56 PM »
I am beginning to believe no one bothered to read what Msgr. Vigano said????
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2020, 05:33:22 PM »
I am beginning to believe no one bothered to read what Msgr. Vigano said????
Ha! What for? We will all argue the same no matter what!
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Elizabeth.2

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2020, 06:20:41 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?
End Times, how else could they have cancelled Holy Week and Easter in Rome and the world. How could so many Valedictorians turn into DC Zombies, literally cringing around in masks, overnight.  I'm going with the St. Bellarmine precursor to Antichrist with all of this.  (which I would do, because of being a basic doomer)   :pray3:
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 08:47:06 PM by Elizabeth.2 »
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: vigano-speaks-again-on-what-is-to-be-done-with-vatican-ii
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2020, 07:23:35 PM »
Msgr. Vigano is correct; but that leaves open the question of how can the Magisterium of the Church, which is protected by God from teaching error, teach error?
End Times, how else could they have cancelled Holy Week and Easter in Rome and the world. How could so many Valedictorians turn into DC Zombies, literally cringing around in masks, overnight.  I'm going with the St. Bellarmine precursor to Antichrist with all of this.  (which I woulddo, because of being a basic doomer.   :pray3:

If Vatican II is the 'revolt' warned about by St Paul in 2Thess 2, then being a doomer makes absolute sense.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
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WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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