Author Topic: Restitution  (Read 478 times)

Offline The Theosist

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2020, 08:52:02 AM »
Then when you steal you should steal as much as you are able to.

If you are ever sorry it is just as easy to be willing to pay back a billion as ten-thousand.

Willingness to pay back involves actually paying back whatever one is able to, so stealing a billion is probably going to put you in poverty for life. If that's of any consequence to what you think someone "should" do,  being a "should" can't be deduced from an "is" in the first place.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2020, 08:57:01 AM »
Then when you steal you should steal as much as you are able to.

If you are ever sorry it is just as easy to be willing to pay back a billion as ten-thousand.

The proof is in the pudding. As soon as you get your next paycheck, you're either going to set aside some money towards paying back the billion dollars you stole (thereby proving that you will to pay it back), or else you're going to not set aside any of the money (thereby proving that you no longer will to pay it back).

(I suppose there is still the question of how much money needs to be set aside. But it's clear that if you don't set aside any money, you don't truly will to pay back the debt. Unless you have two wills or something. I suppose you could will to pay back the debt with your one will, and you could simultaneously will not to pay back the debt with your other will or something.)


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« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 09:18:59 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline paul14

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2020, 09:41:22 AM »
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2020, 01:06:54 AM »
Then when you steal you should steal as much as you are able to.

If you are ever sorry it is just as easy to be willing to pay back a billion as ten-thousand.

Willingness to pay back involves actually paying back whatever one is able to, so stealing a billion is probably going to put you in poverty for life. If that's of any consequence to what you think someone "should" do,  being a "should" can't be deduced from an "is" in the first place.

But the more you steal the more fun you can have.  You can only pay back what you subsequently earn, less what it costs to live.

Would there be a moral duty on a thief never to marry?  I doubt it.
 

Offline Frank

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2020, 04:32:54 AM »

Interesting. I would have said "hung".

But it appears I would have been wrong.

Quote
Hung is the past tense of to hang when it means to suspend or be suspended. Hanged is the past tense of to hang when it means to kill someone by tying a rope attached from above and removing the support from beneath.

My mother was Belgian. That's my excuse. Probably explains why I only got passes in English
and English Lit. in School Certificate exam. A credit in English was necessary for Matricultion
exemption. Fortunately the examiners must have taken pity on me since I got distinctions in
Physics, Chemistry and Maths.

Quote
The United Kingdom School Certificate was an educational attainment standard qualification, established in 1918 by the Secondary Schools Examinations Council (SSEC).

The School Certificate Examination was usually taken at age 16. Performance in each subject was graded as: Fail, Pass, Credit or Distinction. Students had to gain six passes including English and mathematics to obtain a certificate. To obtain a "matriculation exemption" one had to obtain at least a Credit in five subjects including English, mathematics, science and a language. Those who failed could retake the examination. Some students who passed then stayed on at school to take the Higher School Certificate at age 18.

The School Certificate was abolished after the GCE O-Level was introduced in 1951.[1] The School Certificate also existed in a number of Commonwealth countries such as Australia and Singapore at various times.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 04:46:42 AM by Frank »
in principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum
hoc erat in principio apud Deum
omnia per ipsum facta sunt et sine ipso factum est nihil quod factum est
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2020, 07:21:48 AM »
Then when you steal you should steal as much as you are able to.

If you are ever sorry it is just as easy to be willing to pay back a billion as ten-thousand.

Willingness to pay back involves actually paying back whatever one is able to, so stealing a billion is probably going to put you in poverty for life. If that's of any consequence to what you think someone "should" do,  being a "should" can't be deduced from an "is" in the first place.

But the more you steal the more fun you can have.  You can only pay back what you subsequently earn, less what it costs to live.

Would there be a moral duty on a thief never to marry?  I doubt it.

I don't know if there's a "moral duty" or not, but I'd suspect there is. Because I've heard it said that it's a sin to "live beyond one's means", and I've also heard it said that it's generally a bad idea (even if not always sinful) to get married if you don't have the money to support a family. Hopeless amounts of unpaid debt would seem to fall into both these categories. Not only do you not have the money, but you have large amounts of negative money.

What I don't entirely understand is why a repentant thief needs to pay back the money at all in cases like this. (Or, especially, in cases where the repentant thief wants to join a religious community.) I am not denying the Church's teaching on restitution; I do see how the idea has at least some scriptural basis. But what's puzzling is the way it plays out in practice. Monetary debt can be arbitrarily "forgiven" in an instant, at the injured party's discretion. Like if somebody steals a billion dollars from me, and I say to him, "Don't worry about paying it back", he literally owes me nothing. (And presumably if the injured party has this power, then God also has this power.) So suppose the thief (who had stolen like a billion dollars from me) has confessed his sin, and God has forgiven him in Confession. Who then do I think I am, to demand payment? "God may have forgiven you, but I certainly haven't. Better pay up!" If this isn't a sin against charity, I don't know what is. I would think the injured party would be bound in charity to let him off the hook. And this is even more so if he wants to join a religious community. (And if the injured party doesn't let him off the hook, I'd think he should probably be permitted to ignore the injured party's uncharitable demands, since nobody has the right to be uncharitable so the the injured party really has no right to be making such demands in the first place.) Because God says "Go, and sin no more." There's basically two options: the thief spends the rest of his life paying back the debt (which, you gotta admit, in this day and age would most likely require him to live at least a somewhat worldly life, would require him to at least materially participate in the sins of others, and, if his only real skills are the sorts of skills that I have--video game development, writing, multimedia design, philosophy--, would require him to more or less make himself into an instrument of Satan as it's virtually impossible to find a job in which these sorts of skills can be put to good use but more or less every job on the market involves the tearing down of Christ's kingdom) or else he joins the monastery and lives a holy life of prayer and penance. Is the former actually more pleasing to God than the latter? Perhaps it is, but it doesn't seem that way to me, at least not at the moment.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 07:29:15 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline The Theosist

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2020, 08:46:27 AM »
If you give him the money he stole then hes obviously no longer guilty of holding on to stolen money, neither to you nor to God, just of a past act of theft.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2020, 10:09:03 AM »
If you give him the money he stole then hes obviously no longer guilty of holding on to stolen money, neither to you nor to God, just of a past act of theft.

I guess the question is, why wouldn't you simply let him have it? If he still has the money in his possession, it seems perfectly reasonable to ask for it back. But if he no longer has the money, and you know that such a debt is more or less going to destroy his livelihood, why would you demand he pay it back? That seems uncharitable to say the least.
 

Offline TandJ

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2020, 10:10:22 AM »
I believe Ive read that in the case where a person wants to marry they are allowed to since life and vocation is a higher order than restitution. Have you asked a trad priest this question? Ive always wondered how a priest would handle the case of a father who stole money but has a family. Would he have to sell his home and stop having children until the debt is paid? What if theres no way to pay back the company unless he is exposed as a thief? Would he have to accept jail time to pay back what he owes? What happens to his family?

Another thing I thought about is if you have to pay back every debt to be saved it would make me very reluctant to have a family member on life support in a hospital because who wants the dread of eternal damnation hanging over their heads for the rest of their lives to pay back millions of dollars to a hospital. Just the bill for a ct scan and a bag of fluid at the hospital was 26,000 without insurance. One can hardly expect to have a wife do everything she can to save a life when it will cost millions and she will be under pain of sin bound to pay back until her life ends, right?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 10:14:52 AM by TandJ »
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2020, 10:44:03 AM »
Yeah, what's up with hospital bills? I have no background working in the medical field, but, is it a huge scam or something? I do understand that the drugs and medical equipment are expensive and the doctors and other staff need to be paid, and there's probably insurance costs or lawsuits they're constantly dealing with, but does all this stuff really balance out to the price they charge, or are the hospitals simply taking advantage of their patients?

The whole idea of being indebted to an impersonal entity seems a little strange to begin with. I do understand that businesses are owned by people, but still. What makes no sense is that the owners of these bigger companies are always so distant and unreachable (in some cases anonymous) that you'd have an extremely difficult time repaying them, even if you had the money. I myself will be in this situation soon (owing money to a company I once worked for), so I will need to speak with my priest as to how to go about paying the money back. And for these nebulous corporations that are "publicly owned" or whatever, who exactly do you pay back? I think there's also the issue of money laundering. Some companies probably don't even want to take back the money, because then it will look suspicious and the government might come after them.
 

Offline TandJ

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2020, 11:09:37 AM »
Daniel, Ive asked three trad priests about paying back an employer and unanimously they said to give the money to charity for several reasons

1) losing reputation if found to be a thief
2) impossible to give money anonymously to a company without looking like money laundering
3) impossible to get repeated high dollar money orders because thats illegal and you would be on the governments radar.

But do tell what your own priest advises
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Restitution
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2020, 11:53:18 AM »
If you give him the money he stole then hes obviously no longer guilty of holding on to stolen money, neither to you nor to God, just of a past act of theft.

I guess the question is, why wouldn't you simply let him have it? If he still has the money in his possession, it seems perfectly reasonable to ask for it back. But if he no longer has the money, and you know that such a debt is more or less going to destroy his livelihood, why would you demand he pay it back? That seems uncharitable to say the least.

If no one owes you a billion dollars, or even a thousand dollars, then it's a pointless exercise to worry about other people's moral dilemmas. It's a very common trap to think about the other person's moral issues instead of my own.

"This person ought to do such-and-such good thing to me," is leading my mind astray from the pertinent issue of what good things I should be doing for them.
 
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