Author Topic: Catholic groups contradicting one another  (Read 1926 times)

Offline Daniel

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Catholic groups contradicting one another
« on: September 16, 2020, 06:19:19 PM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

What is going on? How can we know where to go?

And why is this even a question? I would think that any Catholic of good-will, who is guided by the Spirit, would easily be able to identify the true Church amongst all these imposters. Yet not all Catholics are in agreement. Is this really to be blamed completely on ill-will? I can't read hearts, but outwardly most trads don't seem very evil.

But anyway, what do we do if we can't identify the Church? Do we just choose a group willy nilly and hope to get lucky? Or do we try and wait it out, avoiding every such group and every Mass, until the Spirit shows us where to go and/or leads us there Himself? [edit - Hoping also not to be lead by an evil spirit to our destruction. Because those evil spirits are often easily mistaken for God initially. At least with me, it's only in hindsight that I realize they weren't God after all.]
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 06:35:19 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline paul14

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2020, 06:34:26 PM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

What is going on? How can we know where to go?

And why is this even a question? I would think that any Catholic of good-will, who is guided by the Spirit, would easily be able to identify the true Church amongst all these imposters. Yet not all Catholics are in agreement. Is this really to be blamed completely on ill-will? I can't read hearts, but outwardly most trads don't seem very evil.

But anyway, what do we do if we can't identify the Church? Do we just choose a group willy nilly and hope to get lucky? Or do we try and wait it out, avoiding every such group and every Mass, until the Spirit shows us where to go and/or leads us there Himself?

-... -.-- / - .... . .. .-. / ..-. .-. ..- .. - ... / -.-- --- ..- / ... .... .- .-.. .-.. / -.- -. --- .-- / - .... . -- .-.-.-
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2020, 07:20:23 PM »
Daniel,
all the above groups are Catholic; yet they all disagree on the issue of Vatican II and the post-Conciliar magisterium and discipline, including the new sacramental rites. Study your faith and don't trust any group 100%; this crisis in the Church will soon pass and all these issues will be settled in a authoritative manner by the Holy Pope that will rule the Church.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2020, 07:35:41 PM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

What is going on? How can we know where to go?

And why is this even a question? I would think that any Catholic of good-will, who is guided by the Spirit, would easily be able to identify the true Church amongst all these imposters. Yet not all Catholics are in agreement. Is this really to be blamed completely on ill-will? I can't read hearts, but outwardly most trads don't seem very evil.

But anyway, what do we do if we can't identify the Church? Do we just choose a group willy nilly and hope to get lucky? Or do we try and wait it out, avoiding every such group and every Mass, until the Spirit shows us where to go and/or leads us there Himself? [edit - Hoping also not to be lead by an evil spirit to our destruction. Because those evil spirits are often easily mistaken for God initially. At least with me, it's only in hindsight that I realize they weren't God after all.]

Looked up MHFM. John Vennari was apparently once a member. Weirdly, if wikipedia is correct (which I think it is, as heard of that a few times), the Dimonds go to a Byzantine Rite Mass in Communion with bould Francis (who talks like no known Pope, but has the office).
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2020, 10:04:08 PM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

What is going on? How can we know where to go?

And why is this even a question? I would think that any Catholic of good-will, who is guided by the Spirit, would easily be able to identify the true Church amongst all these imposters. Yet not all Catholics are in agreement. Is this really to be blamed completely on ill-will? I can't read hearts, but outwardly most trads don't seem very evil.

But anyway, what do we do if we can't identify the Church? Do we just choose a group willy nilly and hope to get lucky? Or do we try and wait it out, avoiding every such group and every Mass, until the Spirit shows us where to go and/or leads us there Himself? [edit - Hoping also not to be lead by an evil spirit to our destruction. Because those evil spirits are often easily mistaken for God initially. At least with me, it's only in hindsight that I realize they weren't God after all.]

The Church has four marks.  If one is clearly not there, all four are not there, despite appearances to the contrary.  The church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.  When it comes to the CMRI, they are clearly not apostolic.  Their sacraments from +Thuc are doubtful.  To understand why, read the online paper titled "the sacred and the profane" by +Clarence Kelly.  Just do a google search and pdf download. 

And, ironically, the CMRI invalidates all of the novus ordo sacraments.  To the CMRI, the new rites are not valid and illicit as the sspx/trads traditionally held.  To the CMRI, the new rites are invalid, and illicit.  This is a perfect and clear example of how they usurp authority, and it is their principal offense.  Such is the norm for sedevacantists, and the cmri are sedevacantists.

Learn about their founder francis schuckhart.  His own subordinates kicked him out for financial impropriety, drug use, and sexual misconduct.  They also confess that in private he considered himself the pope, a pope gregory.

I would never attend a CMRI mass. 

As for MHFM, again, they are not apostolic, in the sense that they are not clergy.  So, you can in a certain sense dismiss them.  They are not successors or representatives of the apostles.  Therefore, they cannot be considered "the church".  Because, we know the gates of hell will never prevail against the church, abandoning us to "prophets"(I am being generous in this terms application here) as opposed to our guarantee of "priests". 

As for all the rest, the differences are minor in comparison, and therefore manageable.  In my opinion, the sspx, +Williamson line sspx resistance, and ecclesia dei groups(FSSP) are all safe options for sacraments/living out our faith.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 10:51:44 PM by Philip G. »
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2020, 10:53:16 PM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

That's because they have no locus of authority to unite and rule them. Each group interprets what they deem to be the deposit of faith to the best of their ability. In epistemological terms, they're not in a substantially different place than that of the Eastern Orthodox or the Protestants. The gravitational center is missing.

On the other hand, you still have the traditional locus of authority in Rome but in order to abide by it, you have to ditch tridentine Catholicism.

Hence the unsolvable conundrum of traditional Catholicism.
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Offline Greg

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2020, 01:40:54 AM »
I wander around, meeting new people, getting into adventures.

Recently, I met an Argentinian priest who says the Russian Catholic Rite as well as the TLM.  He is a good man.  Looks just like Rasputin.  Likes wine, steak.  He is one cool cat.

I am going to help him build a small Russian Catholic chapel with icons and a divider, rood screen type thing.  I have lent him all of my tools and I am fixing his car too.  The front quater glass window was broken by thieves in France.

I have a good feeling he and I will be firm friends.  If the Church was at a high point you would never have adventures like this and get such close personal friendships with Catholic priests.  They would be aloof.

Because Trads had to pick up the batton we are much more knowledgable and connected to the liutgy than we would be otherwise.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 02:59:06 AM by Greg »
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2020, 02:31:00 AM »
I'll keep on quoting the Zhuangzi here because it's so good.

Quote
These various policies are scattered throughout the world and are propounded in the Middle Kingdom, the scholars of the hundred schools from time to time taking up one or the other in their praises and preachings. But the world is in great disorder, the worthies and sages lack clarity of vision, and the Way and its Virtue are no longer One. So the world too often seizes upon one of its aspects, examines it, and pronounces it good. But it is like the case of the ear, the eye, the nose, and the mouth: each has its own kind of understanding, but their functions are not interchangeable. In the same way, the various skills of the hundred schools all have their strong points, and at times each may be of use. But none is wholly sufficient, none is universal. The scholar cramped in one corner of learning tries to judge the beauty of Heaven and earth, to pry into the principles of the ten thousand things, to scrutinize the perfection of the ancients, but seldom is he able to encompass the true beauty of Heaven and earth, to describe the true face of holy brightness. Therefore the Way that is sagely within and kingly without has fallen into darkness and is no longer clearly perceived, has become shrouded and no longer shines forth. The men of the world all follow their own desires and make these their "doctrine." How sad! - the hundred schools going on and on instead of turning back, fated never to join again. The scholars of later ages have unfortunately never perceived the purity of Heaven and earth, the great body of the ancients, and "the art of the Way" in time comes to be rent and torn apart by the world.

Quote
In the south there was an eccentric named Huang Liao who asked why Heaven and earth do not collapse and crumble, or what makes the wind and rain, the thunder and lightning. Hui Shih, undaunted, undertook to answer him; without stopping to think, he began to reply, touching upon every one of the ten thousand things in his peroration, expounding on and on without stop in multitudes of words that never ended. But still it was not enough, and so he began to add on his astonishing assertions. Whatever contradicted other men's views he declared to be the truth, hoping to win a reputation for outwitting others. This was why he never got along with ordinary people. Weak in inner virtue, strong in his concern for external things, he walked a road that was crooked indeed! If we examine Hui Shih's accomplishments from the point of view of the Way of Heaven and earth, they seem like the exertions of a mosquito or a gnat - of what use are they to other things? True, he still deserves to be regarded as the founder of one school, though I say, if he had only shown greater respect for the Way, he would have come nearer being right. Hui Shih, however, could not seem to find any tranquillity for himself in such an approach. Instead he went on tirelessly separating and analyzing the ten thousand things, and in the end was known only for his skill in exposition. What a pity - that Hui Shih abused and dissipated his talents without ever really achieving anything! Chasing after the ten thousand things, never turning back, he was like one who tries to shout an echo into silence or to prove that form can outrun shadow. How sad!

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu3.html#33
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2020, 02:47:59 AM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

That's because they have no locus of authority to unite and rule them. Each group interprets what they deem to be the deposit of faith to the best of their ability. In epistemological terms, they're not in a substantially different place than that of the Eastern Orthodox or the Protestants. The gravitational center is missing.

On the other hand, you still have the traditional locus of authority in Rome but in order to abide by it, you have to ditch tridentine Catholicism.

Hence the unsolvable conundrum of traditional Catholicism.

The FSSP treads the middle path quite well. As does the Anglican Ordinariate and other groups.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2020, 03:02:24 AM »
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2020, 06:25:26 AM »
Let’s not forget these guys. Frau H and I went to Mass there some way back and a few among them were bewildered and even scared as it seemed “imposters” were among them. One has to be approved prior to being allowed.

https://servi.org/
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Offline The Theosist

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2020, 07:31:22 AM »
And why is this even a question? I would think that any Catholic of good-will, who is guided by the Spirit, would easily be able to identify the true Church amongst all these imposters. Yet not all Catholics are in agreement. Is this really to be blamed completely on ill-will? I can't read hearts, but outwardly most trads don't seem very evil.



When you're essentially a Stoic, believing in the real existence of a "natural law" in accord with "reason" and discoverable by it, upon which both the world and its moral meaning operate, so that all evil is the result of an intellectual error, a mistake of choosing a lesser good over a greater one, it's a small though contradictory step to proposing that error itself arises out of an "ill will" and is, when it concerns "heresy", a sin.

 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2020, 07:58:57 AM »
edit - Sorry, I think this reply has begun to derail the thread and has begun to bring it into sedevacantist territory. Nevertheless, I'll leave it here.


As for MHFM, again, they are not apostolic, in the sense that they are not clergy.  So, you can in a certain sense dismiss them.  They are not successors or representatives of the apostles.  Therefore, they cannot be considered "the church".  Because, we know the gates of hell will never prevail against the church, abandoning us to "prophets"(I am being generous in this terms application here) as opposed to our guarantee of "priests". 

But if I understand the MHFM position correctly, I think they say that it's because the Church is in eclipse, as prophesized by our Lady. The gates of hell have not prevailed... there still exist some valid priests out there, from whom we can receive the sacraments. But since Rome has lost the faith, and since most clergy are now heretics, we are not to trust any of them when it comes to Church teaching. The MHFM just seems to be a group of knowledgable non-priests who know (or claim to know) the Church's authentic teachings, and who aren't afraid to expose everybody else as satanically-inspired apostates.

I don't know what to think, but I've been watching their videos and it all makes sense. It's not just crazy conspiracy theories or sensationalized news stories. These guys actually seem to know what they're talking about. Perhaps the Holy Ghost is behind it.

But I can't tell. Maybe they themselves are satanically-inspired tools of the devil, just like everybody else.

Yet they do seem a lot more credible than the FSSP. I had been attending a FSSP parish up until two Sundays ago, and now I'm a little afraid to go back. This parish has a statue of John Paul II right in the narthex, which the MHFM says is the image of the beast. The FSSP priests are nice, and seem to try to be helpful, but so far they haven't been able to help me in my personal spiritual needs, and the whole parish seems compromised by the Vatican II church. And they're under the control of the local diocesan bishop.

The SSPX doesn't seem as compromised, but it doesn't really seem a whole lot better. I was attending a SSPX chapel a few years ago, until their priest more or less told me that I shouldn't be there. I haven't been back since. Except I did go back, last Sunday, in order to avoid going to the FSSP parish. Generally speaking, I've found that the SSPX priests are also nice, and also try to be helpful. I, in fact, sought the advice of one of them last week. He gave me some advice, and it was a great start but I don't think it'll actually solve my spiritual problems.
Yet if what the Resistance says is true, the SSPX is compromised and I shouldn't even be listening to their priests.
But if what the SSPX says is true, the Resistance is a liar.
And if what the MHFM says is true, none of the SSPX or Resistance priests are even validly-ordained.
And even if they are validly-ordained, there's still the question of jurisdiction.

The one problem that all of these groups seem to have in common is that they are all Thomists. All except possibly this guy who condemns scholasticism but who also rejects every pope from Innocent II onward.
But maybe it's just me. Maybe Thomism is correct after all. But if it is, I'd like to see that it is... or at least know that it is.
From what I can see, not only does Thomism seem to be full of problems and seem to lead to problems, and not seem very apostolic, but it also comes at an awfully convenient time in Church history. According to Bishop Williamson's interpretation of Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser's hypothesis of the seven ages of the Church, A.D. 1200 was literally the point at which things all began to go down hill. Bishop Williamson doesn't see it, but my guess is that the whole purpose of Thomism was to set the stage for the Age of Apostasy.


Let’s not forget these guys. Frau H and I went to Mass there some way back and a few among them were bewildered and even scared as it seemed “imposters” were among them. One has to be approved prior to being allowed.

https://servi.org/

Well I don't know anything about them, but I use their liturgical calendar and it's really nice. Probably the best calendar I've ever come across. And their In paradisum CD is also nice.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 08:22:25 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline dellery

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2020, 08:20:58 AM »
So we have these groups such as the FSSP, the SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance, the MHFM, the CMRI, etc., all calling themselves "Catholic" and all claiming to be right, and they're all are contradicting one another, and telling us more or less that we're heretics and/or schismatics and/or apostates if we side with the wrong group and/or attend the wrong Mass.

What is going on? How can we know where to go?

And why is this even a question? I would think that any Catholic of good-will, who is guided by the Spirit, would easily be able to identify the true Church amongst all these imposters. Yet not all Catholics are in agreement. Is this really to be blamed completely on ill-will? I can't read hearts, but outwardly most trads don't seem very evil.

But anyway, what do we do if we can't identify the Church? Do we just choose a group willy nilly and hope to get lucky? Or do we try and wait it out, avoiding every such group and every Mass, until the Spirit shows us where to go and/or leads us there Himself? [edit - Hoping also not to be lead by an evil spirit to our destruction. Because those evil spirits are often easily mistaken for God initially. At least with me, it's only in hindsight that I realize they weren't God after all.]

The Dioceses, Bishops & and etc., are part of the Church and constitute Her visible elements.
The Fraternity and the Institute, are fruits of the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre. The SSPX preserves Tradition so that the Church --the Dioceses and the Hierarchy-- can return to it. Some will undoubtedly cry "but Archbishop Lefebvre said the Vatican is home to a New Church, now!!!", but they reduce such statements to a ridiculous, and dim-witted, simplicity in failing to recognize that Archbishop Lefebvre accepted the visible Hierarchy as the leaders of the Church while making the aforementioned statements.

Anybody who is outside of the visible Catholic Church has no claim to be Catholic, they are self-righteous, self-important, lay-people. This goes for all the home-aloners, "Resistors", Sedevacantists (RIP), and others, who say the Church is not the True Church, but that their group is. This also goes for those who reduce the Church to a Traditionalist Sentimentality as well, and act like you can be a faithful Catholic while being detached from the visible Church.
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Catholic groups contradicting one another
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2020, 08:28:34 AM »
Anybody who is outside of the visible Catholic Church

But why doesn't the SSPX fall into this category? This is something I still haven't been able to figure out. As far as I know, the Church only gave the SSPX permission to operate for 6 years beginning in 1970. ( https://sspx.org/en/legal-existence-sspx ) Those 6 years are long over, and the permission was never renewed. (I've e-mailed a few SSPX priests about this very thing, and none have explained this to me. Most haven't even replied. I don't know if they simply missed my e-mail, or if they're deliberately ignoring it, or if they just don't have an answer.)

There's also the question of whether the SSPX is the true SSPX, or whether the Resistance is the true SSPX. The Resistance claims itself to be the true SSPX, and says that the group calling itself "SSPX", in failing to remain faithful to Archbishop Lefebvre's principles, has split off from the true SSPX.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 08:37:37 AM by Daniel »