Author Topic: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass  (Read 1508 times)

Offline Lynne

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2020, 07:03:26 PM »

There is an irony about his comfort with lecturing (all) trads about charity when he is showing by his comments that he is exhibiting neither charity nor justice.

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Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2020, 11:18:39 PM »
Large families are indeed a wonderful thing, but that does not mean that we should judge people based on their family size.  To assume that a small family means sinful use of birth control or lack of holiness is the sin of rash judgment.

I don't think this is necessarily what is happening. To say "big families are better than small families" is not to say "that small family is using contraception." Big families are better because more children is better than less children; like more beer is better than less beer and more nachos is better than less nachos. A comment on the desirability of a large quantity of something of value is not the same as judgement against the person providing less of the valuable item.
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2020, 02:23:54 PM »
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2020, 02:44:50 PM »
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila

Dare I ask what a "love bomb" is?
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2020, 02:52:20 PM »
To say "big families are better than small families" is not to say "that small family is using contraception."

No, but it IS to say that small families are using contraception when the number of families is large enough to exclude infertility, late marriages etc.

If 1000 Trad families have 5.2 children on average and 1000 NO families have 2.1 then the only major contributing reason is that the NO families are contracepting.

You cannot judge a family.  You CAN judge a population of families and furthermore conclude that MOST of them are using contraception, with a difference like that.
 
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2020, 02:54:48 PM »
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila

Dare I ask what a "love bomb" is?

Never mind. I looked it up. Coupled with "mariachi band" I had envisioned something exploding in glitter and confetti, much more fun than what this actually is.
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2020, 04:14:48 PM »
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila

Dare I ask what a "love bomb" is?

Never mind. I looked it up. Coupled with "mariachi band" I had envisioned something exploding in glitter and confetti, much more fun than what this actually is.

I think Miriam or Diaduit mentioned it earlier in this thread. I can't claim it, but would like to. I hope the hyperbole was a hit.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2020, 07:11:50 PM »

I think Miriam or Diaduit mentioned it earlier in this thread. I can't claim it, but would like to. I hope the hyperbole was a hit.


Not I. I mentioned neither love bombs (whatever those are; I'm afraid to ask, actually) nor mariachi bands.
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2020, 07:56:13 PM »
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila

I would say, Heinrich, that this post proves Fr. R and other complainers to be wrong in their generalizations.  You just detailed some differences in trad communities, proving that for the likes of Fr. R and similar others, their data sample is too small.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.

In my own extensive travels in N.O. communities (at least as wide as Fr. R's travels among trads), I have discovered roughly three broad "kinds" of communities:

1. Groups of which easily half wish they could attend a different Mass (i.e., Traditional) but have not the choice, due to location.

2. Groups who know almost nothing of the Traditional Mass and/or have been told lies about it. (e.g., it is "schismatic" to attend one) and thus are held captive by both their own ignorance -- much of which is not their fault -- and by malevolent rumors.  However, those people are trying their best to be faithful Catholics, with the limited information they have.

3.  Groups who show, in the majority, by their proud, irreverent, and even offensive behavior at Mass, that they have little regard for the setting of any Mass as anything different from an informal gathering, and have no intention of changing their behavior.  They also often ridicule the Traditional Mass (if they know of it), and ridicule anyone who strives for a reverent, more formal Mass setting. (Yeah, that's charitable.)


How would you feel about me if I categorized "those you attend the N.O.M." as:

"proud, irreverent, offensive, mocking, and unaware," and perhaps also "incapable of changing"? (Group #3)

I would say that such a comment would make me just as uncharitable and unaware as those I accuse, since two-thirds of the larger, more encompassing group should not be so categorized.  Would you agree?

Priests, being authority figures, are listened to more seriously than a lowly lay woman like me.  All the more responsibility they have to watch their own tongues for the effect that umbrella statements can have on an entire movement that already struggles and still struggles to survive and sustain itself.   For example, I'm crazy about Fr. Phil Wolfe; I think he's a lot more likable and approachable than Fr. R, for my own personal taste, but that is just a matter of taste, and others may disagree.  Priests like them, who represent the traditionalist movement, should be careful of the way they frame such admonitions.

There is nothing wrong with an admonition.  That's what we want our priests to do, if we value authority, which as traditional Catholics we are especially supposed to value.  But then add a disclaimer, Father.  Add some context:  "This criticism is by no means meant to implicate all traditionalists without differentiation.  It is to ask you to examine how some of you especially committed and passionate types can come across to visitors, converts, reverts, and newbies.  Watch that your vigorous enthusiasm for tradition, exclusively, does not spill over into exclusive attitudes about your community.  I only want to speak about this once, and I hope the next time I preach [or visit here] I will not have to bring it up again."

And such priests should also make sure that they have enough direct evidence before they make even that statement.  What I have seen as much in trad communities as in N.O. communities is that priests usually don't have time to fact-check every complaint or assertion, and thus, it is very, very common to become vulnerable to calumny when you are not even aware that some hyper-sensitive or even envious person somewhere is going to misinterpret or misjudge an innocent action of yours.  What I mean is, one person's definition of charity may not be another person's.  Some people define charity as quasi-embarrassing Welcome Mats; other people (I'm of this group) define it as merely 1:1 kindness of the more hidden type.  I have not seen such hidden charity absent in any trad community of the several I have been acquainted with.  It's just that you will not find 100% of the group, necessarily, exhibiting 1:1 kindness.  The difference, perhaps, between me and some others is that I do not expect a lay trad community to resemble a monastery or traditional convent. I expect more variation in virtue, including the virtue of charity.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 07:59:41 PM by Miriam_M »
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2020, 08:53:32 PM »
In many of the lectures/homiiles/mission talks/sermons I have listened to, Fathers Wolf, Relyea, and Ripperger have clearly stated that Trads have issues in regards to being charitable. One such anecdote by Fr Wolf had him furiously chastising a certain laity for running off a woman he had been counseling towards coming back to the Faith. I know personally from experience that trads can be insular. Mrs. Heinrich and I have encountered (by the laity) scowls, looks of incredulity, people leaving our presence, stiffness in disposition, condescension, and just general ignoring. Never have we been asked, were invited or in any way made to feel welcome. "Love bombs" and mariachi band welcomes are certainly not the expectation, but being treated so inconsiderately is really off putting. I contrast this with my former TLM parish, where most of us long timers, ushers, and regulars openly extended the welcome mat to everyone. Many times vacationers mingled comfortably with us and fit right in with gun talk, woman and children yapping, priests knowing pastor from visitor's parish, etc. Heck, I remember a young honeymooning couple hanging out until clean up and the husband, a state trooper from a neighboring state, was willing to offer security for collection deposit. My expectations are too high, I guess. "If you don't like the way you are being treated, consider that maybe you deserve to be treated that way." --St. Theresa of Avila

I would say, Heinrich, that this post proves Fr. R and other complainers to be wrong in their generalizations.  You just detailed some differences in trad communities, proving that for the likes of Fr. R and similar others, their data sample is too small.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.

In my own extensive travels in N.O. communities (at least as wide as Fr. R's travels among trads), I have discovered roughly three broad "kinds" of communities:

1. Groups of which easily half wish they could attend a different Mass (i.e., Traditional) but have not the choice, due to location.

2. Groups who know almost nothing of the Traditional Mass and/or have been told lies about it. (e.g., it is "schismatic" to attend one) and thus are held captive by both their own ignorance -- much of which is not their fault -- and by malevolent rumors.  However, those people are trying their best to be faithful Catholics, with the limited information they have.

3.  Groups who show, in the majority, by their proud, irreverent, and even offensive behavior at Mass, that they have little regard for the setting of any Mass as anything different from an informal gathering, and have no intention of changing their behavior.  They also often ridicule the Traditional Mass (if they know of it), and ridicule anyone who strives for a reverent, more formal Mass setting. (Yeah, that's charitable.)


How would you feel about me if I categorized "those you attend the N.O.M." as:

"proud, irreverent, offensive, mocking, and unaware," and perhaps also "incapable of changing"? (Group #3)

I would say that such a comment would make me just as uncharitable and unaware as those I accuse, since two-thirds of the larger, more encompassing group should not be so categorized.  Would you agree?

Priests, being authority figures, are listened to more seriously than a lowly lay woman like me.  All the more responsibility they have to watch their own tongues for the effect that umbrella statements can have on an entire movement that already struggles and still struggles to survive and sustain itself.   For example, I'm crazy about Fr. Phil Wolfe; I think he's a lot more likable and approachable than Fr. R, for my own personal taste, but that is just a matter of taste, and others may disagree.  Priests like them, who represent the traditionalist movement, should be careful of the way they frame such admonitions.

There is nothing wrong with an admonition.  That's what we want our priests to do, if we value authority, which as traditional Catholics we are especially supposed to value.  But then add a disclaimer, Father.  Add some context:  "This criticism is by no means meant to implicate all traditionalists without differentiation.  It is to ask you to examine how some of you especially committed and passionate types can come across to visitors, converts, reverts, and newbies.  Watch that your vigorous enthusiasm for tradition, exclusively, does not spill over into exclusive attitudes about your community.  I only want to speak about this once, and I hope the next time I preach [or visit here] I will not have to bring it up again."

And such priests should also make sure that they have enough direct evidence before they make even that statement.  What I have seen as much in trad communities as in N.O. communities is that priests usually don't have time to fact-check every complaint or assertion, and thus, it is very, very common to become vulnerable to calumny when you are not even aware that some hyper-sensitive or even envious person somewhere is going to misinterpret or misjudge an innocent action of yours.  What I mean is, one person's definition of charity may not be another person's.  Some people define charity as quasi-embarrassing Welcome Mats; other people (I'm of this group) define it as merely 1:1 kindness of the more hidden type.  I have not seen such hidden charity absent in any trad community of the several I have been acquainted with.  It's just that you will not find 100% of the group, necessarily, exhibiting 1:1 kindness.  The difference, perhaps, between me and some others is that I do not expect a lay trad community to resemble a monastery or traditional convent. I expect more variation in virtue, including the virtue of charity.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I aired my discontent and that's where I will leave it. I am the author of my own salvation and if the Lord wants Mrs. Heinrich and me to have new chums, it will be.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.