Author Topic: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass  (Read 1502 times)

Offline Maximilian

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5539
  • Thanked: 3649 times
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2020, 06:51:55 PM »
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/

This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:

He's just recycling Fr. Ripperger. From an Opus Dei point of view.

I like what Fr. Ripperger has to say when he sticks to his areas of expertise such as the spiritual life and demonic oppression, but when he starts mixing in his own personal opinions on subjects like "traditionalists," he just embarrasses himself.

It's a sin of rash judgment. As Fr. Ripperger himself would say, "It's effeminate. Just stop it."
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, queen.saints, Kent

Offline coffeeandcigarette

  • Mary Garden
  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Thanked: 240 times
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2020, 11:33:22 PM »
  There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer.  Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying." 

Oh good grief...why?? Now you know she won't shut up for a month about this....
 

Offline mikemac

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8037
  • Thanked: 4178 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2020, 12:30:17 AM »
 :)
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3445
  • Thanked: 1908 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2020, 03:39:11 AM »
  There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer.  Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying." 

Oh good grief...why?? Now you know she won't shut up for a month about this....

Mikemac just couldn't help himself.  And neither could you.

And besides, I agree with Abby Johnson and Taylor Marshall when they say that the TLM is "as noisy and full of screaming kids" as the NO.  Because it is, although they mean babies and toddlers, not kids. 

But that's a detail.  The important point is the claim that being noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers is a selling point.  But perhaps I'm missing something.  Being as noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers as the NO must be why Tradition is flourishing, why Trad parishes are overflowing and why the Conciliarists are quaking in their boots as the TLM takes over.

Oh, and Mikemac, a crying parish is a parish which people attend once before the noise and the screaming drives them away, unless they're insensitive loudmouths who feel right at home among noise and screaming, or are prepared to white-knuckle it through every TLM they attend. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 03:42:34 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline diaduit

  • Mary Garden
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 1767
  • Thanked: 1966 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2020, 04:12:01 AM »
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/

This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:

He's just recycling Fr. Ripperger. From an Opus Dei point of view.

I like what Fr. Ripperger has to say when he sticks to his areas of expertise such as the spiritual life and demonic oppression, but when he starts mixing in his own personal opinions on subjects like "traditionalists," he just embarrasses himself.

It's a sin of rash judgment. As Fr. Ripperger himself would say, "It's effeminate. Just stop it."

That article just makes me mad.  IF anyone suffers with 'righteousness' its the author who seems to enjoy writing like an old woman with pursed lips and handbag on the knees pointing out the faults of the trads.

I have a few very good conservative NO Catholics through prolife whom I'd admire greatly and love being in their company.  Its the Catholics who are hypocrites whom I can't stand, the ones who vote for gay marriage and abortion or say sure all faiths are the same.  There is a thing called righteous anger or righteous pride and in their case I sure as hell can call them false Catholics.  Anyone saint or sinner who comes to TLM is welcome in my eyes and tbh I couldn't think of anything worse than the 'love bombing' to a newbie on the doorstep.  Also, a little more selfish but on Sunday I'm so glad to get Mass and the sacraments for myself and the family and I'm getting what I can in my catholic battery pack to keep me powered for the week ahead that I'm not really in the humour for taking care of someone else.

Oh I can see a future in geriatric crankiness for me. :)
 
The following users thanked this post: Heinrich, Blue Violet

Offline queen.saints

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 827
  • Thanked: 611 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2020, 05:08:16 AM »
Wow, I’m actually so impressed by how much she has changed in just 11 years! That’s not easy.

I really wanted to like her movie, Unplanned, but really hated it. It showed those crazy white men who say abortion is murder as the real bad guys, but the baby-killing femi-nazi as simply misguided on this one issue. I expected this talk to be Unplanned 2.0, but it was actually very different. She comes right out and says that after she left Planned Parenthood she was still a raving socialist, who had completely emasculated her husband, was a terrible mother, and destroyed her marriage. She said it wasn’t like she had happened to be pro-choice, but was conservative on other issues- anything the Church taught, she believed the opposite, so becoming pro-life didn’t fix that.

That’s all the happy ending in the movie, so it’s great to see that in real life, she knew that that wasn’t a happy ending. It’s very humbling to see someone who was a total feminist have changed so much as to display such sincere appreciation and admiration of masculinity and men and accept her feminine role so cheerfully.
If she’s come this far in 11 years, please God, she’ll be even better 11 years from now.

And she actually never says that trads are obnoxious. She spends almost the entire video saying how incredibly wonderful and welcoming everyone was and then Taylor Marshall is the one who brought up the typical imaginary trad stereotypes at the very end and she went along with it, but then really emphasized that that’s only been her experience on twitter and they both agree that all the traditionalists they’ve met in real life have been great, normal people. Who hasn’t ended up saying something critical when trying to be nice? The saints say it’s inevitable if we talk too long.

If they’d stuck to a tidy 60 minutes, instead of going to 1:03:25, they’d have almost to the second avoided that pitfall.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jayne, Lynne, Maximilian, diaduit, coffeeandcigarette

Offline dellery

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2822
  • Thanked: 1029 times
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2020, 07:00:12 AM »
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/

This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:

Did you even read the whole article??
The guy is absolutely right about a lot of things.

Quote
As with any organization, however, with the growth of TLM communities, there have been some growing pains. In the years to come, it will be key to address these concerns so the Tridentine Mass can continue to grow, not only in popularity but also in legitimacy.

Quote
All this usually springs from a bunker mentality resulting from decades of condemnation. As Taylor Marshall writes in his latest book “Infiltration,” the church had taken an antagonistic stance toward the Tridentine Mass ever since the changes of Vatican II. All of sudden, the liturgy that Catholics knew and loved was practically banned. This ban lasted until Pope Benedict XVI officially lifted it in 2007 with the letter “Summorum Pontificum.”

For this reason, traditional Catholics tend to distrust the Vatican along with the secular world. While most will not explicitly break with church authority, many will distance themselves from Novus Ordo Catholics, Protestants, and everyone else. Hence, their preferred form of evangelization is having large families and sheltering them as much as possible, just as their parents did after Vatican II.

Quote
Again, the Tridentine Mass itself is not to blame for this. If anything, theologically liberal Catholics created this problem by stigmatizing and marginalizing their traditional brethren for so long. They turned something beautiful and empowering into something strange and embarrassing. Traditional Catholics were banished from polite company. Now many of them have become comfortable as permanent outsiders.

Quote
After all, traditional Catholicism is better able to facilitate local community and real charity. It replaces the superficial salesmanship and virtue signaling of modern proselytizing with authentic devotion and common sense. Welcoming others and being normal does not necessarily mean compromising one’s traditions or liturgical standards. Evangelization and orthodoxy are perfectly compatible.

The recovery of tradition has been a great boon to modern Catholics. It is the church’s greatest advantage in a society increasingly detached from its heritage and sound spiritual teachings. As Pope Francis and the others continue to ignore problems and alienate more and more people, there needs to be a viable alternative in the church. The Traditional Latin Mass community has a bright future, but it needs to confront its failings so it can finally save a church in crisis.
Bean-Curd Tiger
 

Offline Jayne

  • Mary Garden
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13718
  • Thanked: 5953 times
  • Comic Sans Frontières
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2020, 07:09:55 AM »
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/

This author has no credibility. He does not even realize that monarchy is the ideal form of government. :crazy:

Did you even read the whole article??

Yes, I did.  That was my tongue in cheek way of saying that I believe one of the ideas he listed among the things that make trads look crazy.  That is why I put the crazy emoji there.





Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6814
  • Thanked: 4899 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2020, 01:36:22 PM »
THIS:

I like what Fr. Ripperger has to say when he sticks to his areas of expertise such as the spiritual life and demonic oppression, but when he starts mixing in his own personal opinions on subjects like "traditionalists," he just embarrasses himself.


He is quite knowledgeable about exorcism and the three levels of sustained demonic activity, given how many exorcisms he has accomplished and his wide communication with fellow exorcists.  When he starts opining about the spiritual state (and moral failings) of traditionalists, not so much.  It takes omniscient knowledge to make such sweeping judgments, and that he lacks, just as the rest of us lack that.
 
The following users thanked this post: Maximilian, queen.saints

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6814
  • Thanked: 4899 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2020, 02:08:13 PM »
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/catholics-who-love-the-latin-mass-need-to-get-better-at-loving-their-neighbors-too/

That article is about a year old, and I think I commented several times underneath it at that time.  I thought it was actually posted on SD also near that time, but I'm not sure.  There was also a response to it on the Federalist, but as I recall, I was a little disappointed in the counter-article.

The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well.  Um, speaking of lack of charity....?  Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice.  He should know that better than any layperson.

What I can say when I've had to submit to the occasional "torture" of a N.O.M. (in the past) is that I am offended by the form and that I experienced less grace from attendance than from attending the TLM.  I can also say that, overall, I observed more informality among the attendees there than at the TLM, but by no means were/are all of them irreverent, nor are all TLM attendees reverent.  The problem is simply more pronounced, in my experience, at a N.O.M.

However, many of those attendees have not been well catechized.  Most likely, they are living up to whatever level of behavior has been taught to them is acceptable, and they are also mirroring the self-reference that the N.O.M. models.  (All about humanity and casualness and friendliness during Mass.)  In itself, that does not make them better Catholics than trads, nor worse Catholics.  It makes them neglected Catholics.
 

Offline Maximilian

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5539
  • Thanked: 3649 times
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2020, 06:36:11 PM »
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well.  Um, speaking of lack of charity....?  Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice.  He should know that better than any layperson.

I was listening to a Fr. Ripperger youtube video the other day, and he suddenly veered off into a tangent ranting about traditionalists. So I skipped ahead a few minutes, and he was still on the same topic. So I just clicked it off.

I'm not going to listen to rash judgment against my fellow traditionalists. Even if I am bad, there are holy priests who are being disparaged, and I don't want to be a party to that.
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, diaduit, queen.saints, Blue Violet

Offline Heinrich

  • Steig mal auf den Berg hinauf
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8370
  • Thanked: 3381 times
  • Gott, wende Dich zu uns und gib uns neues Leben
  • Religion: römisch-katholisch
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2020, 08:19:29 PM »
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well.  Um, speaking of lack of charity....?  Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice.  He should know that better than any layperson.

I was listening to a Fr. Ripperger youtube video the other day, and he suddenly veered off into a tangent ranting about traditionalists. So I skipped ahead a few minutes, and he was still on the same topic. So I just clicked it off.

I'm not going to listen to rash judgment against my fellow traditionalists. Even if I am bad, there are holy priests who are being disparaged, and I don't want to be a party to that.

A traditional priest once homilied that weak and prideful people reject criticism and become recalcitrant(my word). Just say'n.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6814
  • Thanked: 4899 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2020, 09:26:03 PM »
The central point, which I don't think the follow-up addressed, is Fr. Ripperger's lack of credentials to judge the hearts and souls of strangers, or even people he has merely met but does not know well.  Um, speaking of lack of charity....?  Engaging in caricature (or, judgment by class or by affiliation) is a grave form of injustice.  He should know that better than any layperson.

I was listening to a Fr. Ripperger youtube video the other day, and he suddenly veered off into a tangent ranting about traditionalists. So I skipped ahead a few minutes, and he was still on the same topic. So I just clicked it off.

I'm not going to listen to rash judgment against my fellow traditionalists. Even if I am bad, there are holy priests who are being disparaged, and I don't want to be a party to that.

A traditional priest once homilied that weak and prideful people reject criticism and become recalcitrant(my word). Just say'n.

Heinrich, you are not seeing this.  It has nothing to do with WHAT is being said -- good or bad.  It has to do with generalizing about an entire group of people, but especially in a way that amounts to rash judgment, because the judgment concerns the interior of the person.

Even IF Fr. R were the spiritual director of every single trad he has ever met (and thus with sufficient information as to the state of their souls), he would be committing a different offense -- which would be breaking confidentiality and committing a form of detraction, which is a mortal sin, if he were in a position to disclose the supposedly interminable list of faults of every traditional Catholic.

Fr. R. hasn't done that, but since he does not have a spiritual director's knowledge of the state of soul of each trad he casually meets, then he is absolutely not in any position to draw categorical conclusions.  It would be just as inaccurate -- though not as offensive -- to claim that trads as a group are more virtuous than Catholics who attend only the N.O.M. 

It's the stereotyping that I have heard with my own ears countless times from him, and that I read last year in the Federalist article.  It would be one thing if he had initially mentioned only "first impressions" he was warning against, and that, with time, became more nuanced and differentiated.  But that's not what he does.  I know for a fact that he has never visited my trad community.  Yes, my community is imperfect, sinful, often lacking in virtue, like every other community on earth, Catholic or not.  But my community is not homogeneous in one or more particular areas (like, lack of charity as a whole group; like, aggressively questioning the priest's gestures at Mass, etc.)  Some have problems with charity, others with pride, others with envy, and in each case there are compensating virtues nevertheless.

Now, some do ask -- merely out of curiosity -- for an explanation of certain gestures, which our priests see as a good thing, not as an attack on the priest.  Our priests welcome questions about liturgical form; they are partly there to educate.  And if a priest is not there to educate but to act defensive and assume arrogance on the part of the lay person who merely asks a question, then the priest, whoever he is, is himself lacking in virtues of humility and patience, I'm sorry.
 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6814
  • Thanked: 4899 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2020, 09:45:19 PM »
I want to add something that I think is important when we're judging or tempted to judge an entire group.  Often, the people we identify as "representative" of a group are not representative at all.  I'm not denying that Fr. R has encountered aggressive questioning in the way he says the liturgy and that he has seen pride and lack of charity in several trads he has met in at least a few locations.  But even if those were the only locations trads were present (they aren't the only locations), the people who approach him, challenge him, or boast about themselves are simply the ones most visible and least worried about being jerks or appearing to be jerks.  That's the way groups of people work.  Fr. R undoubtedly hasn't met the humble people, the charitable people, etc., because those are not the ones who have an agenda.  That's the entire point.  You could describe this as a self-selected group. 

What about all those parishioners, Father, who nodded/smiled at you respectfully or merely shook your hand after Mass, and said nothing, but meekly returned to their cars, trains, homes, or visited the sick on a Sunday, visited friends or relatives, got together there at church or in a different location to engage in some Catholic fellowship?  You don't have an answer, do you, Father?  And I do not believe that 100% of the parishioners approached you after Mass and showed themselves to be uncharitable jerks.

Sorry.  Not believable.
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, diaduit, Blue Violet

Offline dellery

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2822
  • Thanked: 1029 times
Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2020, 10:24:43 PM »
Trads: Too ignorant to help themselves out, too stubborn to learn how, and too proud to accept it from someone else.
 
Bean-Curd Tiger