Author Topic: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass  (Read 1509 times)

Offline Greg

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Offline Jayne

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2020, 07:40:17 PM »
This was great.  I skimmed over the political stuff at the beginning, but I was drawn in once she started talking about becoming Catholic around 23 minutes in.  She had been Episcopalian when she worked for PP. Once she became publicly pro-life, she was no longer welcome there.  ::)

I was fascinated by her comments about being drawn to the Latin Mass and her first impressions of it.  They did an intriguing comparison of certain aspects of the NO and TLM. There was also some interesting discussion of the difference between online trads and trads in person.

I hope people make the time to watch this so we can talk about the ideas they raised.  There were several that I could see being good topics for us.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2020, 11:42:21 PM »
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine.  The TLM is not a performance.  There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer.  Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."  And then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious.  All good though.  Good talk.
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Offline diaduit

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2020, 04:14:20 AM »
I enjoyed that but to be honest I'm tired of the accusation of Trads being obnoxious or self righteous and smug.  I know the parish crank, or the parish weirdo or the community narc but smug....nope not really.  Its like the label conspiracy theorist or tin foil hat, put a label on it with no basis and then throw it around because you haven't got anything else.  This label was invented by died in the wool NO and now we throw it around too.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2020, 05:15:21 AM »
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine.  The TLM is not a performance.  There was a section around 43 minutes for aukwardcustomer.  Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."  And then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious.  All good though.  Good talk.

Come to the TLM.  It's noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers.  It's even noisier than the NO.

That should pull them in.

Oh, and the priest can't hear the noise or see the mayhem because he has his back to you.  These people really know how to sell.  Must be why Tradition is booming.  Not. 

What foolish, self-indulgent nonsense.  Still, at least they're honest.  At least they admit that the TLM is noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 05:25:43 AM by awkwardcustomer »
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Offline Greg

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2020, 05:45:01 AM »
Quote
This label was invented by died in the wool NO and now we throw it around too.

I have been to the SSPX in the USA, UK, France and Australia (more than just the occasional visit) and I have experienced some real wackiness.  It is patchy, but in some locations around the world it is oppressive.  The SSPX in London/UK went from great under Father Edward Black to lousy under Frs. Emily and King and now under Robert Brucciani it is very good again.  Australia was wacky before Father Black arrived, but since then has improved under his leadership so I am told.

Why is the SSPX great again under Brucciani?  Because he is a mentally well balanced, mature adult who had a good childhood in a large Catholic family.  I remember playing poker with his brothers in Highclere in the summer of 1986.  They were normal mentally healthy people who were good Catholics but did not have a stick up their arse.

I went to the SSPX in Botany Bay, NSW in 1994 and it was like a load of Mormons had become Traditionalists.  After 10 weeks I started going to the FSSP in Lewisham instead.

Self-righteous is not a fair label.  Trads know and sense they are right because they have history on their side and it is obvious from attending the mass and speaking to people afterwards that 95% at least give a damn about the faith.  That is not self-righteous, just self-evidence that they are right, a completely different thing.

It is undeniable that there are a contingent of Traditionalists who love to nitpick at everything the laity wears, says, expresses, every action of the priest and value form over substance.  It is the essence of why you get priests like Fr. Pfeiffer becoming dodgy bishops, because as long as their little group is fed its own view of the world, they can excuse anything provided their personal moral, liturgical and fashion standards are met.

The resistance (or the spectrum of resistances) has been great for the SSPX.  It has acted like a nutter magnet.

Bishop Williamson knows this (he is no fool) which is why he refuses to herd cats and lead the resistance.  That way he cannot get the blame.  Very wise of him.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 05:49:03 AM by Greg »
 
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Offline Elizabeth.2

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2020, 07:53:02 AM »


What foolish, self-indulgent nonsense.  Still, at least they're honest.  At least they admit that the TLM is noisy and full of screaming babies and toddlers.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2020, 08:35:16 AM »
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine. 

That was one of my favourite parts.  I don't think I ever put it that way myself, but hearing them discuss it, it really made sense.

  Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."

The local diocesan TLM has a weekly bulletin and that quote is prominent on the cover.  This group has been growing in numbers and there are now a lot of young families, noticeably more than when I used to go there regularly.

And then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious. 

There are a couple of things going on.  One is that the TLM is a better Mass than the NO and people who attend it are far more likely to have a better grasp of Church teaching.  The NO is associated with poor catechesis in a way that the TLM is not.  Recognizing this, in itself, is not obnoxious or self-righteous. It is just the reality. It becomes a problem when trads think of ourselves as better people or better Catholics because of these things.  If anything, we need to be judged by a higher standard because we have these advantages.  But even those of us who realize this get labeled as self-righteous.

The other factor is the online behaviour of trads. The video specifically mentioned Twitter, but we see this on forums too.  Even a very small number of people being obnoxious colours the atmosphere of the whole group.  This phenomenon is not a specifically trad characteristic.  It is a part of online culture, no matter what the topic under discussion.  I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.


 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2020, 10:22:48 AM »

I went to the SSPX in Botany Bay, NSW in 1994 and it was like a load of Mormons had become Traditionalists. 

Australians who don't drink? Now this strains credulity.

From my experience of Australians, they'd have a hard time giving up coffee, let alone alcohol.
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2020, 10:24:44 AM »
I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.

You have no idea of the wars between the "knit-one-pearl-two" crowd and the "knit-two-pearl-one" sect. Talk about schism and heresy!
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2020, 11:40:27 AM »
I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.

You have no idea of the wars between the "knit-one-pearl-two" crowd and the "knit-two-pearl-one" sect. Talk about schism and heresy!

The struggle is real  :knit:
 
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2020, 12:13:14 PM »
I liked their comparison, the TLM being masculine and the NO being feminine. 

That was one of my favourite parts.  I don't think I ever put it that way myself, but hearing them discuss it, it really made sense.

  Quote "if your parish aint crying, it's dying."

The local diocesan TLM has a weekly bulletin and that quote is prominent on the cover.  This group has been growing in numbers and there are now a lot of young families, noticeably more than when I used to go there regularly.

And then they get into how a minority of Trads are obnoxious. 

There are a couple of things going on.  One is that the TLM is a better Mass than the NO and people who attend it are far more likely to have a better grasp of Church teaching.  The NO is associated with poor catechesis in a way that the TLM is not.  Recognizing this, in itself, is not obnoxious or self-righteous. It is just the reality. It becomes a problem when trads think of ourselves as better people or better Catholics because of these things.  If anything, we need to be judged by a higher standard because we have these advantages.  But even those of us who realize this get labeled as self-righteous.

The other factor is the online behaviour of trads. The video specifically mentioned Twitter, but we see this on forums too.  Even a very small number of people being obnoxious colours the atmosphere of the whole group.  This phenomenon is not a specifically trad characteristic.  It is a part of online culture, no matter what the topic under discussion.  I've heard that online knitting groups are notorious for strife and drama and, while I do not knit myself, I find it hard to believe that this is an inherently contentious topic.

The issue with the large knitting community was that the pink hats went insane if someone appeared to support Trump. Pretty stupid.
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Offline diaduit

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2020, 04:46:32 PM »
Being wacky is different to being self righteous and we could bottle it, sell it and become millionaires if wacky were a commodity.

All that aside, a trad catholic has some very strong personality traits to become a trad in the first place and then to sustain themselves in their new world.  You have to have determination to keep going in this crazy world .
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Offline Jayne

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Re: Abby Johnson goes to the old mass
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2020, 05:22:51 PM »
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