Author Topic: In what sense did the Father create the world?  (Read 386 times)

Offline Daniel

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In what sense did the Father create the world?
« on: September 08, 2020, 10:48:03 AM »
John's gospel (1:3, at least the English translation... presumably it's the same in the Latin and Greek) says that Jesus created the world.
Genesis (1:1) says that Elohim created the world. And Elohim is Jehovah a.k.a. Jesus, right?
So Jesus created the world.

However, the creed seems to say that the Father created the world.


How is this to be understood?

Is it saying that because creation is an act of Jesus's divine will, and because Jesus's divine will is the same thing as the Father's will, that when Jesus created the world then the Father also created the world?

Or something else?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 10:56:03 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: In what sense did the Father create the world?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2020, 06:01:35 PM »
God created the world out of nothing "ex-nihilo"; The creation of the world was the work of the Blessed Trinity, attributed to the Father. All the works outside of the Blessed Trinity are done by all three persons. Therefore the Eternal Son also created the world and well as the Holy Ghost.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Jayne

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Re: In what sense did the Father create the world?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2020, 12:08:39 PM »
The word "elohim" is generally recognized as a plural since it uses the Hebrew plural ending "-im" and, in the context of referring to false gods, is clearly used as a plural.  However, Elohim who created the world takes a singular verb.  So the grammar here is showing something that is both plural in a way and singular in a way.  Some use this (reasonably so, I'd say) as Scriptural support for God as Trinity.

When we think or speak of specific works of God in terms one of the Divine Persons, that is a concession to our human limitation.  It is easier for us to think about the Persons by attributing different roles to them, but, as Michael said, the works are done by the all the Persons of the Trinity.

I think this is one of the reasons that people cannot validly baptize in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Comforter (as some have foolishly tried to do in order to avoid "gendered language"). Speaking that way is an inherently flawed understanding of the Trinity.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 
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Offline The Theosist

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Re: In what sense did the Father create the world?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2020, 12:45:33 PM »
John's gospel (1:3, at least the English translation... presumably it's the same in the Latin and Greek) says that Jesus created the world.
Genesis (1:1) says that Elohim created the world. And Elohim is Jehovah a.k.a. Jesus, right?
So Jesus created the world.


John 1:3 says through not by him. You can look at the Genesis 1:1 targums to get a clearer picture of the Memra and Hebrew background foreshadowing John's prologue. The Son has always been the mediator between transcendent creator and creation, and he can be argued to appear in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 in the word את, the "Alpha and Omega", connecting Elohim's act of creation with its definite direct object. Elohim is just a generic term which can be both plural or singular in meaning and refers to God, gods, angels, etc. depending on context.


Quote
However, the creed seems to say that the Father created the world.

God is not three I am's, whatever you're told by the tritheist dolts who use the modern English person in place of hypostasis and understand it to mean the same as the modern English person.