Author Topic: Matrimony  (Read 341 times)

Offline Iamchristian

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Matrimony
« on: July 31, 2020, 06:39:06 AM »
Were Adam and Eve Married? If so, who witnessed the vows? Who was the third person who witnessed the ceremony? I do not even find a marriage ceremony in the text.
if Adam anf Eve did not need a ceremony then why do people need a ceremony nowadays? Adam and Eve just lived as partners it seems when I look at the text. The Church says that this is sinful. Without a ceremony a man should not live with a woman, I am told. I am probably missunderstanding what the Church says on this topic. It semms very natural for a man and woman to want a ceremony with a witness. Natural law tell us this, I think. Has anyone written anything on this topic?
 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 07:36:04 AM »
Here it is:

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And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam. And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed.

God is the witness. The essence of the marriage ceremony is the vow, where the spouses take each other as their "own flesh". Their vows are not explicitly recorded here, but it's very implicit in what Adam says.
Dearly beloved, let us love one another: for charity is of God. And every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. (1 John 4:7)
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 11:35:54 PM »
I've heard that there was a wedding ceremony, and that St. Michael was the witness. But I don't know how reliable my source was.


But yeah, the Church later added additional rules and stuff. In our day it's impossible for Catholics to get married unless the ceremony is witnessed by a Catholic priest who has jurisdiction. This wasn't always the case. But I do think marriages (not the ceremony) have always had to be public.
 

Offline Iamchristian

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 06:22:52 AM »
What is it that makes someone a husband rather than a partner? Is it becuase the couple took some vows (even if there was no witness)? I have always thought that the difference between marriage and partnership was that the couple had someone witness them taking the vows. I hear about non-Catholic partners who bassically said "untill death do us part" but they are not considered married according to the Church. Why are they not married if Adam and Eve were married without a witness (other than God)?
WHat does the Church say?
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 01:27:04 PM »
What is it that makes someone a husband rather than a partner? Is it becuase the couple took some vows (even if there was no witness)? I have always thought that the difference between marriage and partnership was that the couple had someone witness them taking the vows. I hear about non-Catholic partners who bassically said "untill death do us part" but they are not considered married according to the Church. Why are they not married if Adam and Eve were married without a witness (other than God)?
WHat does the Church say?
The exchange of perpetual vows of fidelity is what makes a marriage; the requirement of witnesses is for the protection of society and the partners, from one of the couple stating that vows were never taken, in order to shirk ones responsibilities. Those who take the marriage vows are truly married, even non-Catholics. The difference is that marriage between two Baptized people is a Sacrament; and therefore indissoluble; while the marriage between two unbaptized people, is a true marriage, but still under the Old Testament dispensation, which makes the vow dissolvable under certain circumstances.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 02:01:21 PM »
Michael's answer is (not surprisingly) correct, but I want to add some information on the issue of witnesses.

What is it that makes someone a husband rather than a partner? Is it becuase the couple took some vows (even if there was no witness)?

Yes.  Witnesses are unnecessary for the sacrament to be valid.  There is an explanation in the Catholic Encyclopedia article, https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm

Scroll down to the section called "Minister of the sacrament; matter and form".

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"Marriage is such that its efficacy is not based on the minister of the Church (the priest). Its essence, therefore, can exist without the priest, not because it is a necessary sacrament — though it is indeed necessary for human society, just as baptism is necessary for the individual — but because its efficacy does not come from the minister of the Church. Perhaps, however, it is not lawful to contract marriage except in the presence of the Church and before the priest, if this is possible."
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 
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Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 11:31:55 PM »



But yeah, the Church later added additional rules and stuff. In our day it's impossible for Catholics to get married unless the ceremony is witnessed by a Catholic priest who has jurisdiction. This wasn't always the case. But I do think marriages (not the ceremony) have always had to be public.

Not strictly true. This certainly is the normal way, and it is the way in which marriages are founded with the best priestly guidance, parental advice/permission/societal stability, etc...however, since man and woman are the actual ministers of the sacrament, they can in theory conduct their own wedding. You know the whole "stuck on a desert island" scenario? In such a case, the two can lawfully marry each other with no witness but God and their guardian angels, and live a holy and faithful life together.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 06:52:42 PM »
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What is it that makes someone a husband rather than a partner?
God.

It's pretty clear: What I have brought together, let no man put asunder.

A partner is a fornicator, and fornicators go to hell.

A husband is a man that God has joined to a woman and receives Grace from God.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

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Offline Greg

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 07:58:39 AM »
Were Adam and Eve Married? If so, who witnessed the vows?

Pinchme.
 
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Offline The Theosist

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2020, 11:55:46 AM »
It's pretty clear: What I have brought together, let no man put asunder.

Eve was brought forth out of Adam. The two were already one from creation. What need was there for a sacrament of marriage when the reality of what that sacrament signifies was already there?
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2020, 12:49:53 PM »
It's pretty clear: What I have brought together, let no man put asunder.

Eve was brought forth out of Adam. The two were already one from creation. What need was there for a sacrament of marriage when the reality of what that sacrament signifies was already there?

A child is brought forth from it's mother, that doesn't mean they were married. You could say daughters are brought forth from their father's...that does not mean they have marital privileges. Eve was made from Adam's rib, they were from one flesh, but not of one flesh. Marriage is what brought them back together in a different way to bring forth children.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2020, 01:33:45 AM »
Quote
Eve was brought forth out of Adam. The two were already one from creation. What need was there for a sacrament of marriage when the reality of what that sacrament signifies was already there?

And your point?  That the sacraments weren't required before the fall?  No one is arguing that.

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And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another, committeth adultery against her. [12] And if the wife shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

 
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[4] Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled. For fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

 
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[9] Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [10] Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

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Offline drummerboy

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2020, 12:17:09 PM »
What about the scenario of the captain of a ship marrying a couple?  Obviously not sacramental, but if two Catholics were in that situation, wouldn't it be unwise to have the captain at least perform the civil marriage so the couple can be married in the eyes of the state, but also provide a witness to the couple's marriage?
The bee is small among flying things, but her fruit hath the chiefest sweetness - Ecclesiasticus 3:11
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: Matrimony
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2020, 12:24:29 PM »
What about the scenario of the captain of a ship marrying a couple?  Obviously not sacramental, but if two Catholics were in that situation, wouldn't it be unwise to have the captain at least perform the civil marriage so the couple can be married in the eyes of the state, but also provide a witness to the couple's marriage?

Nobody is talking about being married in the eyes of the state though. The OP was a question on the necessity of the sacrament for Adam and Eve. All things being normal, one would always get married by a priest and register with the local authorities. If there were some type of apocalyptic/non-sacramental emergency thing, a ships' captain does no more to validate your marriage before God than if you did it yourself on your desert island.