Author Topic: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»  (Read 626 times)

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3466
  • Thanked: 917 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
He discusses the duties of a husband toward his wife:
  • Instruction
  • Correction
     This part is offensive to modern ears:
    Quote
    But if your wife is of a servile condition, rustic and ill-mannered character, that with these pleasant words she is not amended, rebuke her with harsh and sharp words, threats, and other fears. And if this is still not enough, and you see her do something offensive to God, injurious to her soul, your or her shame, or another noteworthy danger, take up the stick and beat her well; because it is better to be scourged in the body and to heal the soul than to lose the body and damn the soul.
  • Sustenance
And wife toward her husband:
  • Fear
  • Service
  • Admonition
The Franciscan friar delves into the nitty-gritty of marriage, such as superfluously performing coitus, which leads to sickness and shortening one's lifespan:
Quote
Sickness
 The first harm is sickness; because many people get sick, weak, and lose the natural force and vigor of nature. Wherefore, Esdras [The non-canonical 3 Esdras 4:26: “And many have become mad for their wives: and have been made bondmen for them”], most learned in the law of God, says that many became insane because of their wives, i.e., because of the superfluous and indiscreet copulation that they had with them. Certainly, it is a great infirmity to lose one’s senses and become insane. The booming Ambrose also says that some have become blind for this same reason. Avicenna also says that one act of coitus harms more than ten phlebotomies, i.e., bloodletting, according to what most learned physicians have told me [R. W. Bernard, Science Discovers the Physiological Value of Continence: “An ounce of semen is considered to be equal in value to sixty ounces of blood, of which it constitutes an extract of some of its most valuable of constituents, as far as its vitalizing power is concerned.”]. We have the example of bulls. Two bulls fighting together, one of them victorious, as if by great happiness finds the cow, and copulates with it. The other bull, who was defeated, by instinct of nature knows that bull had lost some of its strength; immediately it assaults it, and whereas at first it was defeated, in the second battle it wins. Thus, the frequentation of this act makes one lose strength and fall into sickness; he becomes weak and soon becomes old.
 
 Shortening of lifespan
 The second harm, which married people have who superfluously perform the marriage act, is the shortening of lifespan. For they do not live so long in the world as they would live if they used such act discreetly. Wherefore, Albert the Great, and even the prince of philosophers, Aristotle, say that elephants live a long time, i.e., one hundred or one hundred twenty years, only because of their continence; because in two years they rest and attend to the carnal act only five or six days. They also say that male sparrows live less than females, because of their overuse of this act. Yet the mule lives for a long time, because it observes continence. Certainly, as this is how it is in animals, so is it in humans, according to their natural condition.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 05:52:30 PM by Geremia »
 

Offline Vexilla Regis

  • Hellebardier
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2020, 06:08:48 PM »
Quote
This part is offensive to modern ears:

The truth often is.
 

Offline Greg

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 12878
  • Thanked: 7479 times
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 01:39:20 AM »
What did he advise about one's legal defence when charged with assault and battery here in the 21st Century?
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3466
  • Thanked: 917 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2020, 05:32:39 PM »
What did he advise about one's legal defence when charged with assault and battery here in the 21st Century?
The Freemasons have gone far in helping the State usurp the husband's authority.
Quote from: Cherubino da Siena
it is not licit for any man to be united carnally with a married woman other than her husband, so it is also not licit for any man to correct a delinquent and errant woman other than her husband.

Offline Greg

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 12878
  • Thanked: 7479 times
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2020, 07:27:39 PM »
So he said nothing about doing 5 years in jail.
 
The following users thanked this post: Prayerful

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3466
  • Thanked: 917 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2020, 11:09:20 PM »
So he said nothing about doing 5 years in jail.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3347
  • Thanked: 3400 times
  • Hopeful Fatalist
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 02:03:49 PM »
2. Correction
This part is offensive to modern ears:
Quote
But if your wife is of a servile condition, rustic and ill-mannered character, that with these pleasant words she is not amended, rebuke her with harsh and sharp words, threats, and other fears. And if this is still not enough, and you see her do something offensive to God, injurious to her soul, your or her shame, or another noteworthy danger, take up the stick and beat her well; because it is better to be scourged in the body and to heal the soul than to lose the body and damn the soul.

I thought only Islam allowed for the physical correction of rebellious wives. Once more, when we dig into history we see the spiritual continuity between the Christian and Islamic traditions.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3347
  • Thanked: 3400 times
  • Hopeful Fatalist
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2020, 02:09:27 PM »
So he said nothing about doing 5 years in jail.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

As far as I understand, Greg is concerned he'd spend 5 years in jail if he beat his wife. But as Friar Cherubino da Siena reminded us, "it is better to be scourged in the body and to heal the soul than to lose the body and damn the soul."

The husband's main responsibility is the spiritual welfare of his wife. If that can only be achieved through physical correction, then it should be done. 5 years in jail is the least a faithful husband should be willing to sacrifice for the salvation of his wife.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Offline Jayne

  • Mary Garden
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13384
  • Thanked: 5632 times
  • Comic Sans Frontières
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2020, 02:18:30 PM »
While I do not consider these quotes to be offensive, I think they are irrelevant.  Cherubino da Siena is so obscure that he does not even have a Wikipedia article about him.  There is no reason to consider what he writes as authoritative or even representative of Catholic thinking.  I could quote a Catholic monk who claimed that the world is flat (Cosmas Indicopleustes) but that does not make it Church teaching.  On the contrary, most Catholics throughout history believed the world is a globe.

St. John Chrysostom, who is both a Church Father and a Doctor of the Church, taught:
Quote
And to you husbands also this I say: make it a rule that there can be no such offense as to bring you under the necessity of striking a wife. And why say I a wife? Since not even upon his handmaiden could a free man endure to inflict blows and lay violent hands. But if the shame be great for a man to beat a maidservant, much more to stretch forth the right hand against her that is free. And this one might see even from heathen legislatures who no longer compel her that has been so treated to live with him that beat her, as being unworthy of her fellowship. For surely it comes of extreme lawlessness when your partner of life, she who in the most intimate relations and in the highest degree, is united with you; when she, like a base slave, is dishonored by you. Wherefore also such a man, if indeed one must call him a man and not rather a wild beast, I should say, was like a parricide and a murderer of his mother. For if for a wife's sake we were commanded to leave even father and mother, not wronging them but fulfilling a divine law; and a law so grateful to our parents themselves that even they, the very persons whom we are leaving, are thankful, and bring it about with great eagerness; what but extreme frenzy can it be to insult her for whose sake God bade us leave even our parents?

But we may well ask, Is it only madness? There is the shame too: I would fain know who can endure it. And what description can set it before us; when shrieks and wailings are borne along the alleys, and there is a running to the house of him that is so disgracing himself, both of the neighbors and the passers by, as though some wild beast were ravaging within? Better were it that the earth should gape asunder for one so frantic, than that he should be seen at all in the forum after it.

But the woman is insolent, says he. Consider nevertheless that she is a woman, the weaker vessel, whereas you are a man. For therefore were thou ordained to be ruler; and were assigned to her in place of a head, that you might bear with the weakness of her that is set under you. Make then your rule glorious. And glorious it will be when the subject of it meets with no dishonor from you. And as the monarch will appear so much the more dignified, as he manifests more dignity in the officer under him; but if he dishonor and depreciate the greatness of that rank, he is indirectly cutting off no small portion of his own glory likewise: so also thou dishonor her who governs next to yourself, will in no common degree mar the honor of your governance.

Considering therefore all these things, command yourself: and withal think also of that evening on which the father having called you, delivered you his daughter as a kind of deposit, and having separated her from all, from her mother, from himself, from the family, entrusted her entire guardianship to your right hand. Consider that (under God) through her you have children and hast become a father, and be thou also on that account gentle towards her.

Do you see not the husbandmen, how the earth which has once received the seed, they tend with all various methods of culture, though it have ten thousand disadvantages; e.g., though it be an unkindly soil or bear ill weeds, or though it be vexed with excessive rain through the nature of its situation? This also do thou. For thus shall you be first to enjoy both the fruit and the calm. Since your wife is to you both a harbor, and a potent healing charm to rejoice your heart. Well then: if you shall free your harbor from winds and waves, you shall enjoy much tranquility on your return from the market-place: but if you fill it with clamor and tumult, thou dost but prepare for yourself a more grievous shipwreck.  In order then to prevent this, let what I advise be done: When anything uncomfortable happens in the household, if she be in the wrong console her and do not aggravate the discomfort. For even if you should lose all, nothing is more grievous than to have a wife without good-will sharing your abode. And whatever offense you can mention, you will tell me of nothing so very painful as being at strife with her. So that if it were only for such reasons as these, let her love be more precious than all things. For if one another's burdens are to be borne, much more our own wife's.

Though she be poor do not upbraid her: though she be foolish, do not trample on her, but train her rather: because she is a member of you, and you have become one flesh.  But she is trifling and drunken and passionate. You ought then to grieve over these things, not to be angry; and to beseech God, and exhort her and give her advice, and do every thing to remove the evil. But if you strike her thou dost aggravate the disease: for fierceness is removed by moderation, not by rival fierceness.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220126.htm
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:34:27 PM by Jayne »
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Jayne

  • Mary Garden
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13384
  • Thanked: 5632 times
  • Comic Sans Frontières
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 02:27:14 PM »
The husband's main responsibility is the spiritual welfare of his wife. If that can only be achieved through physical correction, then it should be done. 5 years in jail is the least a faithful husband should be willing to sacrifice for the salvation of his wife.

I cannot even imagine circumstances occurring in our society in which physical correction would have any spiritual benefit.  Any woman so hardened that she is unmoved by verbal correction, would simply direct the full force of the law against her husband if he attempted physical correction.  He would lose his liberty, his home and access to his children.  Rather than working toward the salvation of the wife, he ensures that his children are raised by a single mother, with all the spiritual and social problems that accompany this state.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:30:03 PM by Jayne »
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3347
  • Thanked: 3400 times
  • Hopeful Fatalist
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 02:40:36 PM »
St. John Chrysostom, who is both a Church Father and a Doctor of the Church, taught...

When St. John Chrysostom preached his long tirades against the "most miserable of all men," the Jews, that's conveniently not considered to be Church teaching or representative of Catholic thinking either.

Or, maybe, it was just representative of Church teaching for that time and place. As we know, Catholicism is supremely contextual.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3466
  • Thanked: 917 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2020, 02:44:42 PM »
Cherubino da Siena is so obscure that he does not even have a Wikipedia article about him.
So? E. Michael Jones doesn't, either, and I wouldn't call him "obscure".

Offline Jayne

  • Mary Garden
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13384
  • Thanked: 5632 times
  • Comic Sans Frontières
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 02:51:30 PM »
St. John Chrysostom, who is both a Church Father and a Doctor of the Church, taught...

When St. John Chrysostom preached his long tirades against the "most miserable of all men," the Jews, that's conveniently not considered to be Church teaching or representative of Catholic thinking either.

Among traditionalists, we typically do accept St. John's views of the Jews.  It is a post-conciliar aberration to think otherwise.

Quote
Or, maybe, it was just representative of Church teaching for that time and place. As we know, Catholicism is supremely contextual.

Perhaps Fra Cherubino was representative of his time, but we have no way of knowing that from simply seeing him quoted in isolation.  Even if he were, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it applies in to us, in our time and place.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Jayne

  • Mary Garden
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 13384
  • Thanked: 5632 times
  • Comic Sans Frontières
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2020, 02:58:28 PM »
Cherubino da Siena is so obscure that he does not even have a Wikipedia article about him.
So? E. Michael Jones doesn't, either, and I wouldn't call him "obscure".

E. Michael Jones had a Wikipedia entry until about a year ago.  It was removed, obviously in retaliation for his supposed "antisemitism".  He is also being suppressed in other online venues. We all know that it was not because he is obscure or unimportant.  Virtually everyone on this forum knows who he is.  This is not the case with Fra Cherubino.  I would be surprised if more that a handful of us were aware of his existence.

Geremia is committing a logical fallacy.  The proposition "obscure people do not have Wikipedia entries about them" cannot be turned around to "everyone who does not have a Wikipedia entry is obscure".  It is the same fallacy that takes the proposition "dogs are four-legged animals" to imply that "all four-legged animals are dogs".
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 04:26:07 PM by Jayne »
Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine.
 

Offline Vexilla Regis

  • Hellebardier
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Religion: Traditional Catholic
Re: Cherubino da Siena, O.F.M. (1477) «Rules for Married Life»
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2020, 04:32:18 PM »
2. Correction
This part is offensive to modern ears:
Quote
But if your wife is of a servile condition, rustic and ill-mannered character, that with these pleasant words she is not amended, rebuke her with harsh and sharp words, threats, and other fears. And if this is still not enough, and you see her do something offensive to God, injurious to her soul, your or her shame, or another noteworthy danger, take up the stick and beat her well; because it is better to be scourged in the body and to heal the soul than to lose the body and damn the soul.

I thought only Islam allowed for the physical correction of rebellious wives. Once more, when we dig into history we see the spiritual continuity between the Christian and Islamic traditions.

Islam is a perversion of Christianity.