Author Topic: Racism as a Sin?  (Read 5065 times)

Offline trentcath

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #180 on: June 29, 2020, 10:01:18 PM »


But I don't think it's as simple as that, or useful to define what happened purely in those terms.   Many of the United Irishmen including Wolfe Tone himself were Protestants and the English had no qualms about killing them too and were just as ruthless in putting down their rebellion as they would have been had the rebels been Catholic. 

Wasn't there a fear that the United Irishmen might ally themselves with the French who Britain was at war with?  Does Britain have to be perpetually on the look-out for Ireland's possible, or actual, collusion with whoever Britain is at war with, or at least accept Ireland's non-cooperation in any war that might threaten the British mainland as in WWII?

The cruel English Protestants killing defenceless Irish Catholic for being Catholic is an attractive narrative.  And I've heard a lot of support for that reading of history on this thread and elsewhere.  But here's the problem.  The English don't trust you (the Irish) and if you continue with that narrative without considering the fact that Ireland has, on more than one occasion, threatened the security of Britain at time of war, they will continue to not trust you.

I am not sure anyone in the UK today doesn't trust Ireland... In fact, the only resentment I have seen has been from Irish Nationalists towards the UK. Now, perhaps the situation would change if the IRA or someone else started blowing things up again but, outside of Northern Ireland, that isn't very likely. Equally it isn't impossible that tensions might flare up again if there is ever a referendum on NI joining the ROI but, honestly, I doubt it. The simple fact is no one outside of Ireland, whether north or south, or who isn't descended from the Irish, gives a flying toss about what happens on the Island. Scotland is a different story, whether because its more integrated into the UK or otherwise, their politics makes more waves in the British consciousness than anything that comes out of the Emerald Isle.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #181 on: June 30, 2020, 01:49:48 AM »
70 years of fighting and bombing for political control of Northern Ireland and when peace is finally achieved the mostly Protestant north of Ireland turns out to be more moral than the Catholic south.

What better litmus test could you have than a national referendum on abortion?

Claiming Ireland is Catholic is like claiming Francis is.  Or that Portugal has the "dogma of the faith".

You have lost the capacity for honest thought.

 

Offline Irishcyclist

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #182 on: June 30, 2020, 03:36:48 AM »
70 years of fighting and bombing for political control of Northern Ireland

This another example of the inaccuracies that you insist on posting throughout this site.

IRA campaign of violence endured between 1969-1994 which is 35 years.
This latest estimate of yours here is only wrong by 50%.

More to be pitied than laughed at, at this stage.

the mostly Protestant north of Ireland turns out to be more moral than the Catholic south.

What better litmus test could you have than a national referendum on abortion?

Claiming Ireland is Catholic is like claiming Francis is.  Or that Portugal has the "dogma of the faith".

You have lost the capacity for honest thought.

There are serious reservations as to the validity of the referedum result for several different reasons.

There was a lot of unusual vote trends concerning that particular referendum. The number of votes cast for one, was far higher than other national polls ever. This number of votes looks suspiciously high. The side supporting the removal of the right to life from our Constitution had huge international support in terms of advertising budgets and financial/logistical firepower. Marie Stopes, British abortion provider, was very active in their campaign for example.

The majority of elected politicians of all the political parties supported the removal of the right to life clause from our Constitution.
Not one political party campaigned to retain the right to life in our Constitution.

But your central point happens to be correct, I think. Ireland was no longer Catholic by the referendum result date. However Ireland had became no longer Catholic several decades earlier, in my opinion

One other point, and this is just by the by. Up to 1980's, the closeness between Catholic Church and Irish State - even for this Catholic - was unhealthy. It was also quite artificial as evidenced by the near 180 degree subsequent change in that "closeness".

« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 03:40:48 AM by Irishcyclist »
 

Offline queen.saints

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2020, 03:39:33 AM »
The strategy about small countries working with larger countries proximate to them is all well and good.
Except that this strategy requires quid pro quo.

In terms of Ireland and British relations, Ireland secured her independence in 1921.

From 1921 until 1990's, political relation were generally poor. They were generally poor because Britain sought to destroy Irish independence in 1920's through military attack, through 1930's through Britain's economic embargo/blockade of Ireland, through 1940's when there was the issue of Irish neutrality during WWII.

1960's - 1990's witnessed open warfare on the streets of Northern Ireland.

It is reasonable to say that Britain only began to entreat with Ireland equally since 1990's.

This entente happened because after years of diminishing international influence (relative to what it had before), Britain probably beganto recognise that it could not dictate terms as it had done so for centuries. Also USA had started to become more involved in trying to reconcile Britain and Ireland.

However I believe that there is still resentment within the British establishment to the fact that Ireland was effectively the first country to cede from the British Empire, when Empire was arguably at it's apex.
Many other subjugated countries took huge inspiration from Ireland standing up to, and defeating, Britain in 1920's.
This defiance by Ireland rankled and perhaps continues to rankle in certain quarters of the British Establishment.


One maxim : the Irish never forget, the English never remember. ;)

Yes, this is why the British SSPX is always trying to run Ireland and train all the priests to give sermons every second Sunday on how bad the Irish have become (after billions has been spent to corrupt them and they’re still doing better than the rest of Europe). I wonder if the English ever get to hear sermons about how they’ve always been despicable, going back to the Saxons. I bet not.
 
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Offline queen.saints

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2020, 03:40:21 AM »
Okay, people can categorise nations into good and evil.  But the reality is often more prosaic.

England, as an outward looking, empire building nation, wasn't prepared to tolerate a difficult, rebellious small nation on its back.  It's the factor in these ancient grievances that everyone forgets - geography, and the need to keep one's back covered.

So the question is, how does a small nation react if its neighbour is a world player and is determined to keep it that way?

Suggestions......

I think you're missing the point. English Protestants killed Irish Catholics for being Catholic.

And English Catholics killed Irish Catholics for being Irish.
 

Offline queen.saints

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #185 on: June 30, 2020, 04:00:10 AM »


The cruel English Protestants killing defenceless Irish Catholic for being Catholic is an attractive narrative.  And I've heard a lot of support for that reading of history on this thread and elsewhere.  But here's the problem.  The English don't trust you (the Irish) and if you continue with that narrative without considering the fact that Ireland has, on more than one occasion, threatened the security of Britain at time of war, they will continue to not trust you.



Three things to beware of in life: the hoof of a horse, the horn of a bull, and the smile of an Englishman.


Nobody wants or cares about the trust of the untrustworthy. We’ve got an Englishman right here who openly admits that he will lie whenever he pleases.

The few Englishmen who are trustworthy are the ones who like Ireland.
 
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Offline Greg

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #186 on: June 30, 2020, 04:38:09 AM »
I don't lie whenever I please.  It is a very conscious decision.

I willfully lie when I assess, in good conscience, that the harm, choas, inconvenience caused by lying is significantly less than if I told the truth.  Lynne's case is a good one.

This is the same motive i have when I tell the truth.  That the good it does, while it might not benefit me, benefits the world, the firm I am working for, a baby who might otherwise be aborted if I don't speak up.

It is one reason I don't have a filter.  A filter and politeness is often a convenient way of tolerating evil.  Think of all the people who are still putting money in the plate and did not feel it was their place to speak up when they knew or strongly suspected a priest was raping someone or a Bishop preying on seminarians.  I hate people who stay silent when they really should speak out.

There are a lot of silent people.  Would that Vigano had less of a filter for the past 50 years.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #187 on: June 30, 2020, 08:10:55 AM »
Ah yes, the English are liars and untrustworthy, say the Irish here.

And yet it is the Irish who have a habit of colluding with foreign powers and offering them a back door invasion route into England.  Even Irish Protestants like Wolf Tone will do this.  The United Irishmen hoped for French support for their 1798 rebellion in return for helping the French invade England.

Quote
During 1796 the most successful and charismatic of France's revolutionary soldiers - General Hoche - started to hatch a grand and complex plan for the co-ordinated invasion of England, Wales and Ireland. Important to the French was the Irish patriot Theobald Wolfe Tone. A member of the Society of United Irishman Wolfe Tone was a Protestant who by the mid 1790s was convinced that change could come only through violent insurrection. In 1796 he was in France seeking aid and promoting the invasion of Ireland by a French army of liberation.

Wolfe Tone and Hoche met and their aspirations coincided. Wolfe Tone promised popular support if the French invaded and, in late December 1796, a French invasion fleet of around 50 ships carrying 15,000 veteran troops set sail from Brest for Bantry Bay in south-west Ireland. The plan was to land, ignite the country in rebellion against the Protestant English overlords, seize the port of Cork and be in Dublin within the fortnight. But nothing went right for the French - the weather was so violent that no troops could be put ashore - and by the first week of January 1797 the French invasion fleet, battered and dispersed, crept back to Brest
.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/french_threat_01.shtml

Will the Irish admit that they have a history of engaging in armed rebellion when England is at war and therefore vulnerable and of colluding with whoever England is at war with.?  Will they ever admit this?

Even the famous Easter Uprising of 1916 took place right in the middle of WWI, with threats of and actual collaboration with Germany.  How many examples of Irish collusion with foreign powers against England do we need in order to conclude that it is the Irish who can't be trusted.

And we mustn't forget how the Irishman Leo Varadkar did his best to help the EU scupper Brexit over the border question.  How many English people watched the antics of Ireland and thought - the Irish are at it again?

One of the most gratifying aspects of identifying as a victim is that it lets you off the hook, so that the abuser/oppressor becomes the epitome of evil and the 'victim' becomes all good.  But it's a lie.

Now tell me, Irish people, will you do it again?  If England is ever under threat of war or invasion again, will you collude with her enemies - again?

Will you?  Can you be trusted not to?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:18:07 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Irishcyclist

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #188 on: June 30, 2020, 08:29:14 AM »
Ah yes, the English are liars and untrustworthy, say the Irish here.

And yet it is the Irish who have a habit of colluding with foreign powers and offering them a back door invasion route into England.  Even Irish Protestants like Wolf Tone will do this.  The United Irishmen hoped for French support for their 1798 rebellion in return for helping the French invade England.

Quote
During 1796 the most successful and charismatic of France's revolutionary soldiers - General Hoche - started to hatch a grand and complex plan for the co-ordinated invasion of England, Wales and Ireland. Important to the French was the Irish patriot Theobald Wolfe Tone. A member of the Society of United Irishman Wolfe Tone was a Protestant who by the mid 1790s was convinced that change could come only through violent insurrection. In 1796 he was in France seeking aid and promoting the invasion of Ireland by a French army of liberation.

Wolfe Tone and Hoche met and their aspirations coincided. Wolfe Tone promised popular support if the French invaded and, in late December 1796, a French invasion fleet of around 50 ships carrying 15,000 veteran troops set sail from Brest for Bantry Bay in south-west Ireland. The plan was to land, ignite the country in rebellion against the Protestant English overlords, seize the port of Cork and be in Dublin within the fortnight. But nothing went right for the French - the weather was so violent that no troops could be put ashore - and by the first week of January 1797 the French invasion fleet, battered and dispersed, crept back to Brest
.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/french_threat_01.shtml

Will the Irish admit that they have a history of engaging in armed rebellion when England is at war and therefore vulnerable and of colluding with whoever England is at war with.?  Will they ever admit this?

Even the famous Easter Uprising of 1916 took place right in the middle of WWI, with threats of and actual collaboration with Germany.  How many examples of Irish collusion with foreign powers against England do we need in order to conclude that it is the Irish who can't be trusted.

And we mustn't forget how the Irishman Leo Varadkar did his best to help the EU scupper Brexit over the border question.  How many English people watched the antics of Ireland and thought - the Irish are at it again?

One of the most gratifying aspects of identifying as a victim is that it lets you off the hook, so that the abuser/oppressor becomes the epitome of evil and the 'victim' becomes all good.  But it's a lie.

Now tell me, Irish people, will you do it again?  If England is ever under threat of war or invasion again, will you collude with her enemies - again?

Will you?  Can you be trusted not to?

Is English your first language?

I could have sworn that I posted earlier that 1916 Rising stated "We serve neither king nor kaiser, but Ireland"
You know who the kaiser was? Or do you need this explained to you as well?

The issue of the border falls under the Good Friday Agreement signed in 1998.
The provisions of the agreement concerns the border.
Britain is a signatory to that agreement.
Therefore Varadkar was insistent that Britain adhere to what it agreed in 1998.

I think you're a gobshite.

 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #189 on: June 30, 2020, 09:24:23 AM »
God's Message on Racism, against Racial Hatred, and on the duty and importance of loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as our self, which is the Essence of Holy Love, and as Our Lord taught in the Gospel, on it depends all the Law and all the Prophets: "Children, do not allow the word 'racism' to spark violence within your hearts.  Racism is a word that describes negative feelings within your hearts but need not be.  Regard other races as My creations and opportunities to love as such.  Do not let racism be a switch that clicks on hatred in your hearts and the reason for negativity towards other human beings which I made by My Hand."

"Be united in love of Me and towards each other.  Do not allow differences to divide you.  Allow unity to be your goal and differences to be your binding tolerance and strength out of love for Me and each other.  This is the Holy Love I call you to."


Read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7,13 +

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude.  Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.  Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. . . So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." https://www.holylove.org/messages/#latest-message

To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #190 on: June 30, 2020, 09:44:12 AM »
Ah yes, the English are liars and untrustworthy, say the Irish here.

And yet it is the Irish who have a habit of colluding with foreign powers and offering them a back door invasion route into England.  Even Irish Protestants like Wolf Tone will do this.  The United Irishmen hoped for French support for their 1798 rebellion in return for helping the French invade England.

Quote
During 1796 the most successful and charismatic of France's revolutionary soldiers - General Hoche - started to hatch a grand and complex plan for the co-ordinated invasion of England, Wales and Ireland. Important to the French was the Irish patriot Theobald Wolfe Tone. A member of the Society of United Irishman Wolfe Tone was a Protestant who by the mid 1790s was convinced that change could come only through violent insurrection. In 1796 he was in France seeking aid and promoting the invasion of Ireland by a French army of liberation.

Wolfe Tone and Hoche met and their aspirations coincided. Wolfe Tone promised popular support if the French invaded and, in late December 1796, a French invasion fleet of around 50 ships carrying 15,000 veteran troops set sail from Brest for Bantry Bay in south-west Ireland. The plan was to land, ignite the country in rebellion against the Protestant English overlords, seize the port of Cork and be in Dublin within the fortnight. But nothing went right for the French - the weather was so violent that no troops could be put ashore - and by the first week of January 1797 the French invasion fleet, battered and dispersed, crept back to Brest
.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/french_threat_01.shtml

Will the Irish admit that they have a history of engaging in armed rebellion when England is at war and therefore vulnerable and of colluding with whoever England is at war with.?  Will they ever admit this?

Even the famous Easter Uprising of 1916 took place right in the middle of WWI, with threats of and actual collaboration with Germany.  How many examples of Irish collusion with foreign powers against England do we need in order to conclude that it is the Irish who can't be trusted.

And we mustn't forget how the Irishman Leo Varadkar did his best to help the EU scupper Brexit over the border question.  How many English people watched the antics of Ireland and thought - the Irish are at it again?

One of the most gratifying aspects of identifying as a victim is that it lets you off the hook, so that the abuser/oppressor becomes the epitome of evil and the 'victim' becomes all good.  But it's a lie.

Now tell me, Irish people, will you do it again?  If England is ever under threat of war or invasion again, will you collude with her enemies - again?

Will you?  Can you be trusted not to?

Is English your first language?

I could have sworn that I posted earlier that 1916 Rising stated "We serve neither king nor kaiser, but Ireland"
You know who the kaiser was? Or do you need this explained to you as well?

The issue of the border falls under the Good Friday Agreement signed in 1998.
The provisions of the agreement concerns the border.
Britain is a signatory to that agreement.
Therefore Varadkar was insistent that Britain adhere to what it agreed in 1998.

I think you're a gobshite.

More personal attacks, just like you did to Greg when you ran out of arguments.

Can you answer my questions?

1)  If England is ever again at war or under threat from a foreign power, will the Irish collude with that power, either by offering armed assistance and a back door invasion route into England, or by negotiating with that power against England? 

2) Would you support such a collusion?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline trentcath

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #191 on: June 30, 2020, 10:09:58 AM »


The cruel English Protestants killing defenceless Irish Catholic for being Catholic is an attractive narrative.  And I've heard a lot of support for that reading of history on this thread and elsewhere.  But here's the problem.  The English don't trust you (the Irish) and if you continue with that narrative without considering the fact that Ireland has, on more than one occasion, threatened the security of Britain at time of war, they will continue to not trust you.



Three things to beware of in life: the hoof of a horse, the horn of a bull, and the smile of an Englishman.


Nobody wants or cares about the trust of the untrustworthy. We’ve got an Englishman right here who openly admits that he will lie whenever he pleases.

The few Englishmen who are trustworthy are the ones who like Ireland.

Wow, I didn't think a thread on racism would itself turn into an example of racism (or more accurately xenophobia)  :rofl:

Congrats on proving my point that the only resentment is from Irish towards English and not the other way round (assuming you are Irish  :huh:)  Can't say I was expecting this on a Catholic forum in a discussion between Catholics...

Do you have any legitimate personal grievances against the English or are you just angry because my ancestors (or one half of them to be exact) might have done something bad to one of your ancestors?  ::)
 
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Offline trentcath

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #192 on: June 30, 2020, 10:13:19 AM »
Ah yes, the English are liars and untrustworthy, say the Irish here.

And yet it is the Irish who have a habit of colluding with foreign powers and offering them a back door invasion route into England.  Even Irish Protestants like Wolf Tone will do this.  The United Irishmen hoped for French support for their 1798 rebellion in return for helping the French invade England.

Quote
During 1796 the most successful and charismatic of France's revolutionary soldiers - General Hoche - started to hatch a grand and complex plan for the co-ordinated invasion of England, Wales and Ireland. Important to the French was the Irish patriot Theobald Wolfe Tone. A member of the Society of United Irishman Wolfe Tone was a Protestant who by the mid 1790s was convinced that change could come only through violent insurrection. In 1796 he was in France seeking aid and promoting the invasion of Ireland by a French army of liberation.

Wolfe Tone and Hoche met and their aspirations coincided. Wolfe Tone promised popular support if the French invaded and, in late December 1796, a French invasion fleet of around 50 ships carrying 15,000 veteran troops set sail from Brest for Bantry Bay in south-west Ireland. The plan was to land, ignite the country in rebellion against the Protestant English overlords, seize the port of Cork and be in Dublin within the fortnight. But nothing went right for the French - the weather was so violent that no troops could be put ashore - and by the first week of January 1797 the French invasion fleet, battered and dispersed, crept back to Brest
.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/french_threat_01.shtml

Will the Irish admit that they have a history of engaging in armed rebellion when England is at war and therefore vulnerable and of colluding with whoever England is at war with.?  Will they ever admit this?

Even the famous Easter Uprising of 1916 took place right in the middle of WWI, with threats of and actual collaboration with Germany.  How many examples of Irish collusion with foreign powers against England do we need in order to conclude that it is the Irish who can't be trusted.

And we mustn't forget how the Irishman Leo Varadkar did his best to help the EU scupper Brexit over the border question.  How many English people watched the antics of Ireland and thought - the Irish are at it again?

One of the most gratifying aspects of identifying as a victim is that it lets you off the hook, so that the abuser/oppressor becomes the epitome of evil and the 'victim' becomes all good.  But it's a lie.

Now tell me, Irish people, will you do it again?  If England is ever under threat of war or invasion again, will you collude with her enemies - again?

Will you?  Can you be trusted not to?

I'm surprised no one on this thread has mentioned Cromwell yet...

I honestly don't think your view is representative of the UK though, speaking from my personal experience of growing up and living there for 23+ years, (now abroad) and I am not sure its unreasonable for the Irish to seek alliances in order to get their freedom. Plenty of nations have done it throughout history. As for Varadkar, his actions were legitimate from his point of view albeit they backfired.
 
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Offline Irishcyclist

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #193 on: June 30, 2020, 10:50:20 AM »
Quote from: awkwardcustomer

More personal attacks, just like you did to Greg when you ran out of arguments.

Can you answer my questions?

1)  If England is ever again at war or under threat from a foreign power, will the Irish collude with that power, either by offering armed assistance and a back door invasion route into England, or by negotiating with that power against England? 

2) Would you support such a collusion?

Nothing personal in my replies. You being oblivious to an international legally binding agreement and it's recognition of border conditions renders your critique of Varadkar stupid.
If you're going to try to argue a point it's best to be aware of facts before attempting to argue.

Ireland has never colluded with any foreign power against Britain, since independence.
Ireland did not collude with Argentina for example during 1980s, nor did we collude with Iceland during the cod wars in 1970s.

If you possess evidence of collusion since 1921 in any military conflict between Britain and a foreign power present your evidence here - and I'll shred that argument too.

You're wasting my time now.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Racism as a Sin?
« Reply #194 on: June 30, 2020, 11:20:24 AM »
Ah yes, the English are liars and untrustworthy, say the Irish here.

And yet it is the Irish who have a habit of colluding with foreign powers and offering them a back door invasion route into England.  Even Irish Protestants like Wolf Tone will do this.  The United Irishmen hoped for French support for their 1798 rebellion in return for helping the French invade England.

Quote
During 1796 the most successful and charismatic of France's revolutionary soldiers - General Hoche - started to hatch a grand and complex plan for the co-ordinated invasion of England, Wales and Ireland. Important to the French was the Irish patriot Theobald Wolfe Tone. A member of the Society of United Irishman Wolfe Tone was a Protestant who by the mid 1790s was convinced that change could come only through violent insurrection. In 1796 he was in France seeking aid and promoting the invasion of Ireland by a French army of liberation.

Wolfe Tone and Hoche met and their aspirations coincided. Wolfe Tone promised popular support if the French invaded and, in late December 1796, a French invasion fleet of around 50 ships carrying 15,000 veteran troops set sail from Brest for Bantry Bay in south-west Ireland. The plan was to land, ignite the country in rebellion against the Protestant English overlords, seize the port of Cork and be in Dublin within the fortnight. But nothing went right for the French - the weather was so violent that no troops could be put ashore - and by the first week of January 1797 the French invasion fleet, battered and dispersed, crept back to Brest
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/french_threat_01.shtml

Will the Irish admit that they have a history of engaging in armed rebellion when England is at war and therefore vulnerable and of colluding with whoever England is at war with.?  Will they ever admit this?

Even the famous Easter Uprising of 1916 took place right in the middle of WWI, with threats of and actual collaboration with Germany.  How many examples of Irish collusion with foreign powers against England do we need in order to conclude that it is the Irish who can't be trusted.

And we mustn't forget how the Irishman Leo Varadkar did his best to help the EU scupper Brexit over the border question.  How many English people watched the antics of Ireland and thought - the Irish are at it again?

One of the most gratifying aspects of identifying as a victim is that it lets you off the hook, so that the abuser/oppressor becomes the epitome of evil and the 'victim' becomes all good.  But it's a lie.

Now tell me, Irish people, will you do it again?  If England is ever under threat of war or invasion again, will you collude with her enemies - again?

Will you?  Can you be trusted not to?

I'm surprised no one on this thread has mentioned Cromwell yet...

I honestly don't think your view is representative of the UK though, speaking from my personal experience of growing up and living there for 23+ years, (now abroad) and I am not sure its unreasonable for the Irish to seek alliances in order to get their freedom. Plenty of nations have done it throughout history. As for Varadkar, his actions were legitimate from his point of view albeit they backfired.

I'm surprised too.  Then there's the Spanish Armada to consider.  Did Ireland collude with Spain against England then too I wonder?  Must look into it.

But I would argue with your second point.  Ireland is a tiny nation at England's back and is geographically isolated from the rest of Europe.  It is STUPID of them to keep antagonising England and not reasonable at all, especially when they make a habit of allying themselves with nations who are at war with England.

Could they not do something useful instead? I mean, why is Ireland the only country in Europe with a sizeable Atlantic coastline that hasn't developed a great seafaring tradition like Spain, Portugal, England, France, Holland etc.  Wouldn't Germany and Russia give their right arms for such easy access to the Atlantic Ocean?  Ireland has that access and yet nothing.

Is it because all they can think about is getting revenge on England?

The English are too generous to hold anything against ordinary Irish people.  But they don't trust Ireland.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.