Author Topic: Preconciliar Breviary  (Read 632 times)

Offline discalced

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Preconciliar Breviary
« on: June 11, 2020, 09:46:03 PM »
Down another rabbit hole... I started with Christian Prayer until I was gifted the 4-volume LOTH by a friend. Tonight, after Vespers, I was reading a meditation in Divine Intimacy and it said "...the Divine Office enthusiastically sings...", and I realized, "Wait, no it didn't."

I then discovered that there are half a dozen rubrics - Monastic, Tridentine 1570, Tridentine 1910, Divino Afflatu, etc.

Forgive my naiveté, but did V2 really change that too? What is recommended then?
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2020, 12:15:34 PM »

Forgive my naiveté, but did V2 really change that too?

Yes, it changed just about everything.  :'(
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2020, 02:27:54 PM »
Vatican II: "The Religion of the Worship of Man".
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2020, 02:32:19 PM »
Every ritual of the Roman Rite, from Mass and all the sacraments to the Breviary, to exorcisms, to something as small as the blessing of a Rosary, was changed to some degree. If lex orandi, lex credendi has any meaning, the implications of this are staggering.
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2020, 03:08:54 PM »
Indeed, down the rabbit hole you go.  Have fun!  :cheeseheadbeer:
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2020, 09:10:41 AM »
You haven't reached even the middle of rabbit hole until you start lamenting the reform of the breviary made by St. Pius X in 1911.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2020, 11:17:43 AM »
My husband has the 4 volume LOTH and he still uses it for prayer.  I used to join him occasionally, but as I became more traditional, it began to bother me.  I can't remember any specific examples since this was a while ago, I kept finding the wording irritating.

I recommend the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  The Divine Office was meant for clergy and religious.  The LOBVM was the traditional equivalent for lay people.  You can take a look at this online version to see what you think of it.  Given your affinity for Carmelites, this one seems especially appropriate: http://traditionalcarmelite.com/pray/littleoffice/
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Offline discalced

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2020, 12:33:01 PM »
My husband has the 4 volume LOTH and he still uses it for prayer.  I used to join him occasionally, but as I became more traditional, it began to bother me.  I can't remember any specific examples since this was a while ago, I kept finding the wording irritating.

I recommend the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  The Divine Office was meant for clergy and religious.  The LOBVM was the traditional equivalent for lay people.  You can take a look at this online version to see what you think of it.  Given your affinity for Carmelites, this one seems especially appropriate: http://traditionalcarmelite.com/pray/littleoffice/

This is it! Perfect. Now to find a decent hard copy. Thanks!
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Offline tradne4163

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2020, 01:37:08 AM »
My husband has the 4 volume LOTH and he still uses it for prayer.  I used to join him occasionally, but as I became more traditional, it began to bother me.  I can't remember any specific examples since this was a while ago, I kept finding the wording irritating.

I recommend the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  The Divine Office was meant for clergy and religious.  The LOBVM was the traditional equivalent for lay people.  You can take a look at this online version to see what you think of it.  Given your affinity for Carmelites, this one seems especially appropriate: http://traditionalcarmelite.com/pray/littleoffice/

This is it! Perfect. Now to find a decent hard copy. Thanks!

I recommend the Baronius Press edition of The Little Office. It has both English and Latin, plus notation for chanting in an appendix if you’re so inclined.

You could get a Carmelite Rite (OCarm) version, but it’s only out in paperback unless you get really lucky and find an old copy of the prayer book it came from. It’s on Lulu.com and there’s often some sort of discount with a coupon code. If one is available it’s usually advertised right on Lulu’s homepage.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2020, 02:23:36 PM »
I recommend the Baronius Press edition of The Little Office. It has both English and Latin, plus notation for chanting in an appendix if you’re so inclined.

I have the Baronius. This is a publisher associated with FSSP, so if you end up attending their Mass and liking it, that could be an indication you'll like their LOBVM.

I'm not sure if they changed this in later editions, but my Baronius does not have the stress markings on the Latin prayers.  If you intend to pray aloud in Latin, that is inconvenient (unless you are extremely good at Latin).  Other than that, I am happy with it.
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2020, 07:11:59 PM »
I recommend the Baronius Press edition of The Little Office. It has both English and Latin, plus notation for chanting in an appendix if you’re so inclined.

I have the Baronius. This is a publisher associated with FSSP, so if you end up attending their Mass and liking it, that could be an indication you'll like their LOBVM.

I'm not sure if they changed this in later editions, but my Baronius does not have the stress markings on the Latin prayers.  If you intend to pray aloud in Latin, that is inconvenient (unless you are extremely good at Latin).  Other than that, I am happy with it.

The first printing had no stress marks and was RIDDLED with typos in the Latin - it looked like an OCR job that wasn't manually checked or checked by someone who didn't know Latin. I had bought two copies of that, but I never got a look at subsequent editions.
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2020, 12:48:49 AM »
You haven't reached even the middle of rabbit hole until you start lamenting the reform of the breviary made by St. Pius X in 1911.

Unironically this, though. 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2020, 01:50:20 PM »
Some of the last iterations like the Bea Psalter might be considered problematic. Augustin Cardinal Bea SJ made a brand new translation from Hebrew to Latin. A major problem was its fine Latin, notably different from the Vulgate, could not be sung. The Latin LOTH reverted to a contemporary edition of the Vulgate, which could be sung as monks always did.
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Offline discalced

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2020, 09:54:40 PM »
Thanks everyone! The Baronius 5th edition is en route. By now, the typos and formatting errors should've been long corrected. I was leaning toward the version "according to the Carmelite Rite," but it's unfortunately only available as a poorly printed, shoddily constructed paperback.
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Preconciliar Breviary
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 12:57:42 PM »
One last comment. While I agree with Jayne's recommendation of the Little Office, as it is a venerable practice that is many centuries old, I disagree with the idea that the Divine Office is meant for clergy and religious. The Divine Office is meant for public celebration in churches, especially cathedrals. It certainly came to be the preserve of clergy and religious for many reasons, but it should be said that the practice of a priest reading the Office by himself is itself an aberration from the ideal. Religious (apart from Jesuits) had the advantage of communal prayer rules that preserved the choral office, but secular priests and Jesuits gradually came to read the vast majority of the Office privately. Unless a layperson lived near a monastery, the Divine Office was largely inaccessible for this reason (apart maybe from Sunday Vespers in certain churches), and it was not a viable private devotion because of the expense of books and the high level of illiteracy among laity, both in vernacular tongues and certainly in Latin.

All of which does not take away from the fact that the Little Office is an excellent, beautiful, and hallowed devotion.
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