Author Topic: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?  (Read 4300 times)

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3064
  • Thanked: 811 times
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2020, 05:31:58 PM »
The distance the OP is imposing between Augustine, Aquinas, and everything else is evidently motivated by his vague notion that there was a pure, scriptural-based Christianity that has become increasingly corrupt since Nicaea through the application of philosophical methods to theological inquiry and the development of tradition.  That is an axiomatically Protestant starting point even if its throwing some things under the bus that serious Protestants try to retain.

Not a pure scriptural-based Christianity, but a pure Christianity. The fact is, the Church was in possession of the complete deposit of faith since the very beginning. It's not as if Jesus gave the apostles only some of what they needed to know. The Church's mission has always been to jealously protect the deposit of faith and to pass it on intact to subsequent generations without adding to it. Foreign philosophies and new dogmas do little but obscure and corrupt what's already there.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8096
  • Thanked: 6468 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2020, 05:54:48 PM »
From: Traite Du Saint Esprit, Msgr. Gaume; vol. II pgs. 46-47 (my translation from the French):
Quote
The Incarnate Word would not be God, if the Church which He promised to be with all days, could teach one error, no matter how small, even one time; or even let perish one of the truths confided to her care. That is why the Protestants who deny the perpetual infallibility of the Church, implicitly deny the divinity of Our Lord. Their God is not the true God, but an impotent liar.  Impotent, because He cannot prevent the teaching of error; liar, because He has not done so, after promising to do so.
 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2383 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2020, 06:33:15 AM »
From: Traite Du Saint Esprit, Msgr. Gaume; vol. II pgs. 46-47 (my translation from the French):
Quote
The Incarnate Word would not be God, if the Church which He promised to be with all days, could teach one error, no matter how small, even one time; or even let perish one of the truths confided to her care. That is why the Protestants who deny the perpetual infallibility of the Church, implicitly deny the divinity of Our Lord. Their God is not the true God, but an impotent liar.  Impotent, because He cannot prevent the teaching of error; liar, because He has not done so, after promising to do so.


This is a very idealistic and very rationalistic understanding of the Church, where the Church exists primarily in this ideal realm of scholastic deductions and papal definitions without the least tint of doctrinal error. But in the real world, Christian pastors down the ages have made all sorts of errors and omissions in their preaching, and none have ever successfully communicated to their congregations this supreme, infallible, complete, unchanged, and eternal "deposit of faith" consisting of a series of propositions to be believed. The idea that the Church (i.e. the real Church, the one consisting of human beings) has never taught "one error, no matter how small, even one time" is clearly preposterous. That's because teaching is a dynamic process of listening, analysing, recapitulating, allegorising, etc., and not a geometrical series of infallible deductions from first principles like the rationalists imagined. What Catholic theologians did in the wake of Protestant doctrinal upheavals was create a phantom Church of doctrinal perfection and crowned it with papal infallibility. But we don't need such a phantom perfect Magisterium, since the essence of divine faith is not adherence to propositions backed by infallibility but a general willingness to hear and trust in God. The scholastic rationalists think that if you get one proposition wrong you lose the virtue of faith. But that's obviously false, since people often change or develop their religious opinions over time without losing their overall commitment to God or willingness to learn from Him. The Church's infallibility does not rest on propositional perfection or inerrancy, but on the fact that the Holy Spirit overall guides the Church, the Christian people, towards salvation and union with God. Msgr. Gaume saying that God is impotent or a liar if He can't guarantee the absolution perfection of the papal or episcopal magisterium is substituting the role of man for the role of the Holy Spirit. It is simply clericalism, thinking that the clergy (or at least the pope) have an innate power which protects them from error, when only God has that power.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 
The following users thanked this post: abc123

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2383 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2020, 06:40:55 AM »
John Lamb - That all makes sense, but how can it be said that the Catholic (i.e. Roman) church not defected? You seem to acknowledge that the Catholic church has overstepped its bounds. Stuff has been added to the teachings; the liturgy has been compromised; Catholics are forced (on pain of spiritual death and excommunication) to believe novel dogmas that Christians didn't always believe; and even the moral teachings have been altered to the point that in many cases it's impossible to know whether or not you're sinning (which is certainly not how the original epistemology worked).

All the churches, like all families, have their strengths and weaknesses. The Roman church is the greatest in some ways and in others the most flawed. Much of what the Roman church "added" to the Apostolic faith was a natural and legitimate development, which is praiseworthy not blameworthy. Defection in religious terms means divorce. Has the Roman church divorced herself from Jesus Christ? Some Protestant and Orthodox zealots might say so, but they're obviously wrong. Whatever flaws the Roman church might have, she has never wavered in her overall commitment to worship God, proclaim the gospel, and form souls in Christ. And the proof is the continued production of saints in the Roman communion.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2383 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2020, 06:53:02 AM »
Foreign philosophies and new dogmas do little but obscure and corrupt what's already there.

"Foreign philosophies and new dogmas" often just means putting the faith forward in the language of the times, and to some extent this is a necessary and helpful process, even though you're right that it can lead to obscurities and corruptions. Our classical definitions of the Holy Trinity, for example, are couched in the language of ancient Greek Metaphysics. That's not part of the original biblical language but still it was necessary. Even biblical language is something relative not absolute, since it is put in the words that were understood by the peoples of those times. Jesus Himself clearly adapts His thoughts and language to His first century audience. This is an intrinsic part of language/communication: a certain relativity and adaptability. Declaring biblical language absolute and refusing any other is theological suicide and even extreme Protestant sects have failed to abide by it (e.g. Calvinist notions of God's "sovereignty" are borrowed from the language of 16th century Royal absolutism, not the Bible).
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3064
  • Thanked: 811 times
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2020, 08:38:28 AM »
Defection in religious terms means divorce. Has the Roman church divorced herself from Jesus Christ? Some Protestant and Orthodox zealots might say so, but they're obviously wrong. Whatever flaws the Roman church might have, she has never wavered in her overall commitment to worship God, proclaim the gospel, and form souls in Christ. And the proof is the continued production of saints in the Roman communion.

But this is debatable. Augustine professed his belief in a God who is both the Christian God and Plato's God. But no such God exists. It's not, as Augustine believed, that Plato had an incomplete understanding of the Christian God. Rather, it's that these are two different Gods. In equating the one with the other, it seems that St. Augustine (unintentionally) invented a whole new syncretic God. Same thing with Aquinas. And, on a larger scale, it seems that Catholic church did this too, and has "divorced" herself from Christian God. At least that was my experience. I once believed in Augustine and Aquinas, because I thought that that was what the Church taught. And it was all downhill from there. The next thing I knew I was practically an atheist, believing that the universe was an eternal four-dimensional mental construct which had been thought into existence by an impersonal Brahman-like God whose very nature is to think such a world into existence. And the whole time I was duped into believing that this God was the Christian God. That's what happens when you start mixing Greek philosophy into the equation.

Eventually I came to realize that it was Tertullian who was right all along: "Writing to the Colossians, he [St. Paul] says, 'See that no one beguile you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, and contrary to the wisdom of the Holy Ghost.' (Colossians 2:8 ) He had been at Athens, and had in his interviews (with its philosophers) become acquainted with that human wisdom which pretends to know the truth, while it only corrupts it, and is itself divided into its own manifold heresies, by the variety of its mutually repugnant sects. What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy and the Church? What between heretics and Christians? Our instruction comes from the 'porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.' (Wisdom 1:1) Away with all attempts to produce a mottled Christianity of Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic composition! We want no curious disputation after possessing Christ Jesus, no inquisition after enjoying the gospel! With our faith, we desire no further belief. For this is our palmary faith, that there is nothing which we ought to believe besides." (Tertullian, Prescription against Heretics, chapter 7)

edit - I suppose that maybe philosophy can have its place in explicating and clarifying the Church's teachings, but what Augustine and Aquinas have done goes far beyond that. Aquinas especially, because he places such great emphasis on the intellect. The entire religion becomes a vain intellectual exercise. Everything is reduced to studying theology, learning and following rules, etc.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 08:54:13 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3937
  • Thanked: 2023 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2020, 08:50:42 AM »
Not a pure scriptural-based Christianity, but a pure Christianity. The fact is, the Church was in possession of the complete deposit of faith since the very beginning. It's not as if Jesus gave the apostles only some of what they needed to know.

But without knowing where the Church is, how would you know what Jesus gave the apostles in the first place?  I think your problem with this may be epistemological rather than ecclesiological.  Consider statements of yours such as the following: "what we know for certain is that the Church is indefectible," and "the true Church is undeniably the 'light of the world'."  You couldn't know these things with the certainty you claim—unless you had already received them from an infallible source.

So if you consider the gospels trustworthy, then it seems like you should have your answer, because apparently some institution (or else the Holy Spirit) has sufficiently convinced you of the truth of scripture.  You are privileging Semitic monotheism over Greek philosophy, and I'm sure you have your reasons for that⁠—but these are reasons which must come from faith, since they certainly didn't come from the Socratic method.

Now Tertullian did cast off the Greek patrimony, as you indicate, but it's perhaps instructive that he ended his career in an apocalypto-charismatic sect which had a third testament of the bible, compiled from ecstatic prophecies, and whose members were waiting for the heavenly kingdom to appear on a hilltop in a village in Phrygia.  And good for Tertullian, I suppose; that's far more faithful to the Semitic scheme than the Greek.


« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 09:07:59 AM by Pon de Replay »
"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2383 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2020, 09:28:20 AM »
I think God has revealed Himself to the nations in different ways. The Chinese concept of Tao carries more subtlety in its understanding of the divine than anything in Hebrew or Greek literature, I think. The particular privilege of the Hebrews is that God revealed Himself to them more and more personally, and it's through the Bible that we first come to know of God truly as Someone rather than a Something. The covenant God made with Abraham, the man of faith, which culminated in Jesus Christ, is the most important and unique religious tradition in the world, because, despite its lack of philosophical sophistication or metaphysical subtlety, it's here that God deigns to speak to us as persons and eventually adopt us as His own sons and daughters. In fact, there's a certain appropriateness to the fact that the nation which knew God most personally was relatively deficient in an intellectual understanding of Him; often it's outsiders that notice something about a family that the family members themselves don't notice, because of their familiarity. That said, I can only imagine that God wants all the gifts He's given to each nation to be brought into the Church. To reject them amounts to theological ingratitude and bigotry. "We know God personally so we have nothing to learn about Him from you outsiders", is the most obvious flaw of the Abrahsmic tradition, which the Catholic Church has done a lot to overcome.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 

Offline Daniel

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3064
  • Thanked: 811 times
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2020, 09:28:35 AM »
Pon - Yeah, I do see the epistemological problem. It can't be left up to our own judgement because we aren't infallible, but it also can't be left to an infallible authority since that would lead to an infinite regress (you can't know the authority to be infallible except by appeal to some other authority which you don't know to be infallible except by appeal to some other authority, and so on)

I am not sure what the answer is. It sure doesn't seem that God infuses this knowledge into each man directly. But my guess would be, I think we humans must have some sort of faculty of soul enabling us to know God on a personal level, through prayer. Then with grace we are made friends of God, and with sufficient familiarity we eventually begin to pick up on His m.o. such as to be able to make increasingly accurate judgements concerning whether X is something that comes from Him or something that comes from somebody else. If we make a mistake along the way but remain God's friends the we can be sure that God will eventually correct us. So ultimately it's up to God, whom we know to be infallible without any appeal to other authorities.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3937
  • Thanked: 2023 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2020, 09:48:09 AM »
The particular privilege of the Hebrews is that God revealed Himself to them more and more personally, and it's through the Bible that we first come to know of God truly as Someone rather than a Something.

Myself, I prefer the latter.  The personalization does not tend to end well.  A matter of taste, perhaps.

"The sneakiness of prigs, the conventicle secrecy, gloomy concepts like hell, like sacrifice of the guiltless, like unio mystica in drinking blood; above all, the slowly fanned fire of revenge, of chandala revenge—all that is what became master over Rome."

Rome sank to whoredom and became a stew
The Caesars became beasts, and God—a Jew!
 
The following users thanked this post: Kent

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2020, 11:14:16 AM »
Quote from: John Lamb
The Chinese concept of Tao carries more subtlety in its understanding of the divine than anything in Hebrew or Greek literature, I think.

John, that is simply impossible. The Bible is God's Word. God is Jesus Christ. If we read anything in the New Testament, including from the Gospel writer whose name you share, we learn that the purpose of divine revelation is to bring us to saving faith in and love of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Name that gives salvation. Our Lord Jesus teaches, in the Gospel of St. John:"3:[16] For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. [17] For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. [18] He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. [20] For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved."

And St. John the Apostle wrote: 1 Jn 5:[7] And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. [8] And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one. [9] If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God, which is greater, because he hath testified of his Son. [10] He that believeth in the Son of God, hath the testimony of God in himself. He that believeth not the Son, maketh him a liar: because he believeth not in the testimony which God hath testified of his Son.

[11] And this is the testimony, that God hath given to us eternal life. And this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life."


It is laxity at best to propose other ways of salvation than through Jesus Christ Our Lord, the Only Name under Heaven that saves (Acts 4:12). Thus in the Creed of St. Athanasius we profess, "The Catholic Faith is this ... furthermore it is necessary for eternal salvation that he also believes faithfully in the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ ... the right Faith is, the Son of God is God and Man ...". Since God of old commanded solemnly that we are to have no other gods beside Him, in like manner in the New Testament we are to acknowledge no other way of salvation beside Him. The great missionary zeal of the early Christians was because they unswervingly believed this divine Truth.

The great Saints of God have also always taught this, from St. Augustine and St. Chrysostom to St. Thomas and St. Francis Xavier. Sts. Peter and St. Paul taught it.

Daniel, have you read Aeterni Patris? If you read it, you may understand why the Church esteems the philosophy of St. Thomas - it is extremely useful in leading non-Christians to saving faith, to helping Christians grow in wisdom and understanding (gifts of the Holy Spirit's Grace, which we must grow in), helps to refute errors, helps us in reaching non-Christians with the Faith and the Gospel etc. What St. Thomas collected was the collective Christian patrimony of so many centuries, handed down through so many Church Fathers.

"17. Among the Scholastic Doctors, the chief and master of all towers Thomas Aquinas, who, as Cajetan observes, because "he most venerated the ancient doctors of the Church, in a certain way seems to have inherited the intellect of all."(34) The doctrines of those illustrious men, like the scattered members of a body, Thomas collected together and cemented, distributed in wonderful order, and so increased with important additions that he is rightly and deservedly esteemed the special bulwark and glory of the Catholic faith. With his spirit at once humble and swift, his memory ready and tenacious, his life spotless throughout, a lover of truth for its own sake, richly endowed with human and divine science, like the sun he heated the world with the warmth of his virtues and filled it with the splendor of his teaching. Philosophy has no part which he did not touch finely at once and thoroughly; on the laws of reasoning, on God and incorporeal substances, on man and other sensible things, on human actions and their principles, he reasoned in such a manner that in him there is wanting neither a full array of questions, nor an apt disposal of the various parts, nor the best method of proceeding, nor soundness of principles or strength of argument, nor clearness and elegance of style, nor a facility for explaining what is abstruse." http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_04081879_aeterni-patris.html
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson, Blue Violet

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2383 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2020, 01:54:44 PM »
I agree that nothing is more sublime or as spiritually vital as the revelation of the New Testament. It's just that the Chinese concept of Tao carries more philosophical / metaphysical subtlety, in my opinion. The two can support each other, even though the New Testament is obviously the primary and most important revelation of God in all of history.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 
The following users thanked this post: Xavier

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2383 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2020, 02:02:07 PM »
The particular privilege of the Hebrews is that God revealed Himself to them more and more personally, and it's through the Bible that we first come to know of God truly as Someone rather than a Something.

Myself, I prefer the latter.  The personalization does not tend to end well.  A matter of taste, perhaps.



Excessive sentimentality on the one hand, and personal withdrawal into intellectual abstractions on the other, are two sides of the same coin: refusal to be honest about oneself and be personally open and accepting of reality. Honestly, it's the same error: one hides themselves in strong emotions, the other hides themselves in strong thoughts. The difference comes down to a matter of temperament. Hiding one's real person / real self from God is rooted in fear, anger, and/or self-loathing. An honest and personal relationship with God is worth more than all the metaphysical subtleties and philosophical speculations in the world.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2020, 09:27:12 AM »
I agree that nothing is more sublime or as spiritually vital as the revelation of the New Testament. It's just that the Chinese concept of Tao carries more philosophical / metaphysical subtlety, in my opinion. The two can support each other, even though the New Testament is obviously the primary and most important revelation of God in all of history.

Well, I'm glad we agree the New Testament is the primary and most important revelation of God in all history. But do we agree that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven? I don't believe so.

St. Augustine said, "Our faith is sound if we believe no one is loosed from the bonds of death except by the one Mediator, Jesus Christ". Daniel is questioning St. Augustine, but everything St. Augustine did and wrote was for the greater glory of Jesus Christ Our Lord as the Son of God the sole Redeemer. If we believe, our faith is sound.

I encourage every Catholic to try and evangelize at least 10 non-Christians to saving faith in Jesus Christ Our Lord and to Holy Baptism. And non-Catholics to the Church too if you are able to do it. Trying to win over non-Christians prevents us from falling into laxity. It makes us learn more about our Faith, especially such things as e.g. Messianic Prophesies, Eucharistic Miracles, Miracles in the lives of the Saints, Evidence for the Resurrection etc. as are useful in Evangelism.

Here, in India, I and a group of other Catholics have a plan to win 100 million souls to Christ in the next 10 years. It makes us read and study the Word of God, the lives of the Saints, the Catechism, and study everything else that in any way helps souls come to the knowledge of Christ and the safety of membership in His Catholic Church.

How is it that, starting from about 12 Apostles, there are 1.3 Billion Catholics and some 2.5 billion Christians today? It is because the early Christians always evangelized. It is a great glory of our King to be served and adored and worshiped by many people all over the world. To work for the glory of His Name spreading all over the Earth is among our foremost duties and one of our highest privileges. 5 Billion souls are in danger of perishing in ignorance of Christ. Over a billion separated Christians are in danger of perishing without receiving final perseverance, for want of the Body and Blood of Christ. We must have a burning and earnest desire to bring all men to the Saving Sacraments of the Catholic Church of Christ Our Lord.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson, Davis Blank - EG

Offline Kent

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Thanked: 168 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: The Catholic church isn't the true Church?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2020, 11:10:44 AM »
The tension you are finding between Catholicism and the various Greek philosophical traditions is artificial.

It is the splendor of Catholicism that wherever it finds anything good, it baptizes it and incorporates it into the universal Church, refining it to be in the service of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Great Commission He deputed unto His Church.  It was St. John the evangelist himself who opted to speak to the Greeks on their own terms and in their own philosophical language, assigning to Our Lord Jesus Christ the designation of Logos.  If you were a Greek receiving St. John's gospel you would think you were hearing Heraclitus, not John.  The Gospel itself sanctions the appropriation of 'Greek patrimony', so trying to find this so-called 'pure Christianity' is a non-starter from go.

Which means that the use of Greek philosophy in Catholic theology is only a question of degree.  You simply cannot say that it has no place, you can only argue that it has been over-relied on.  In which case your argument for defection is not going to get off the ground, because defection is binary-- it's not something that you can have more or less of.

But even an argument that it has been over-relied on will fail, I think. I would maintain that it is the rejection of (what we can broadly call) the Aristotelian metaphysical tradition, especially once it became known and used, that led to a great many of the problems in Christendom since the middle ages.  It is thanks to that tradition that we are able to articulate transubstantiation the way we are.  It is thanks to that tradition that we are able to give a profound and reconcilable account of justification, as Trent does.  Once various thinkers-- Occam, Luther, Pascal, etc. begin to reject the syllogizing of the Aristo-Thomists the deposit of faith becomes slowly but surely inexplicable.  Explanations of doctrine begin to fall by the wayside, giving rise to declarative brute facts, from which one gets the kind of fideism that gave rise to the scourge of rationalism and the false dichotomy between faith, reason, and science that has plagued the western world for the last three hundred years.  Not to mention, of course, the abandonment of purely philosophical demonstrations of God's existence as certain, which demonstrations have fallen by the wayside.  Even people who 'believe in God' will tell you it's a kind of Kierkegaardian 'leap of faith,' not something that they can know with certainty.  All of these problems can be traced back not to the adoption but the rejection of a powerful philosophical method.
I do profess to be no less than I seem, to serve him truly
that will put me in trust, to love him that is honest, to
converse with him that is wise and says little, to fear
judgment, to fight when I cannot choose, and to eat no fish.
 
The following users thanked this post: Non Nobis, Aeternitus, Michael Wilson, Xavier, Blue Violet