Author Topic: Great restoration or second coming  (Read 1359 times)

Offline pioflower

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Great restoration or second coming
« on: May 18, 2020, 04:27:54 AM »
Hi,

I know we have to live each day as if it's our last, but I'm awaiting for a conversion of a family member.
A lot of people are speculating Jesus is about to arrive? But our lady of good success talks about a restoration? What do you think will happen?
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2020, 08:24:08 AM »
We should always be ready and not base our hope and faith on that which is not commanded, but permitted. If our faith falters and hope (these virtues are commanded) is attacked due to something not commanded (belief in private revelation), we should reconsider our belief in private revelation, or at least our understanding of it.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2020, 02:57:46 PM »
One priest I know says that a worse chastisement than Covid will follow.  This is by no means a statement of private revelation he is making on his own, but what he logically sees as a sequence within the Fatima message.  (Nor did he speculate as to the timing of the next one.)  So since we're still in this current chastisement with respect to a global virus, it would not be likely that the Second Coming is around the corner, so to speak. It is probably more likely that worst chastisements or purifications will follow at some point. I think that both public and private revelation tend to point to more time, which would harmonize with your question about restoration.

However, I think what some of us see as contradictory is the urgent moral state of the world and signs of its not-too-distant collapse on one side of the equation, versus the length of time for conversion and restoration on the other side, and the two (in my mind, anyway) seem not to be nearly equivalent in the realm of earthly time.

Perhaps the way one can resolve this apparent chasm is to regard Covid as an opportunity to lengthen time to pray for the conversions of our family members and other fallen-away Catholics, and for grace to become effectual in them. I have myself close to a dozen intimates to pray for.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2020, 03:45:51 PM »
Hi,

I know we have to live each day as if it's our last, but I'm awaiting for a conversion of a family member.
A lot of people are speculating Jesus is about to arrive? But our lady of good success talks about a restoration? What do you think will happen?

Yeah always stay ready and continue to pray for the conversion of your family member.  But besides Our Lady of Good Success there are literally hundreds of Catholic prophecies that talk about a Catholic restoration.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2020, 07:26:45 AM »
Second Coming.....

There is no basis in Scripture for a restoration.  The idea of a chastisement followed by a restoration comes purely from prophecies and apparitions. 

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Aeternitus

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 08:47:05 AM »
Second Coming.....

There is no basis in Scripture for a restoration.  The idea of a chastisement followed by a restoration comes purely from prophecies and apparitions.

I wonder about this, Awkward.  It is certainly true that the Church has not defined anything on when the end of the world takes place. She leaves it open to interpretation, by those equipped to do so, and there are differing views.   Suarez, for instance, maintains the end of the world will happen 45 days after the death of antichrist, and his basis for this is the prophecy of Daniel: “Happy is he who has hope and holds firm until the 1335th day”.  (The persecution of antichrist is to last 1290 days.) 

Fr Arminjon doesn’t agree with the above opinion and says:
Quote
the most authoritative view, and the one that seems to be in harmony with Holy Scripture, is that after the fall of antichrist, the catholic church will once again enter upon a period of prosperity and triumph.

He quotes St Paul:
Quote
If the fall of the Jews, which brought about the conversion of the Gentiles, was the strength of the Church and the richness of the world, and if their loss has become the salvation of men, what will their return be if not a resurrection for the world from death to life?

Fr A goes on to ask the question:
Quote
Is it really credible that the day when all people will be united in this long sought harmony will be the one when the heavens shall pass away with great violence – that the period when the church militant enters her fullness will coincide with that of the final catastrophe?

I find that a valid question worthy of consideration.  Though stating it was the more authoritative view, Fr Arminjon did not indicate who else held it and why he considered it the “more authoritative view”, so that needs investigating, but I do see the point he is making.    Is the mystical body of Christ’s glorious resurrection on earth to be over in an instant?  Does God miss out on having the entire world, united at last in the true faith and all now members of His church, praise and glorify Him on earth with the freedom of their will?  Continued in heaven, of course, as the church triumphant, but it just seems fitting to me that some period of united praise and adoration of God by the entire world should occur whilst still in the world.       

Of course I could be off track, but I find it an interesting question and I just don't think that prophecy alone is responsible for the idea of a restoration of some sort. 

 

 
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 12:45:41 PM »
Second Coming.....

There is no basis in Scripture for a restoration.  The idea of a chastisement followed by a restoration comes purely from prophecies and apparitions.

I wonder about this, Awkward.  It is certainly true that the Church has not defined anything on when the end of the world takes place. She leaves it open to interpretation, by those equipped to do so, and there are differing views.   Suarez, for instance, maintains the end of the world will happen 45 days after the death of antichrist, and his basis for this is the prophecy of Daniel: “Happy is he who has hope and holds firm until the 1335th day”.  (The persecution of antichrist is to last 1290 days.) 

Thank you for your considered reply, Aeternitus, and for pointing out the above concerning the difference in the number of days.  There could well be a period of time between the death of the antichrist and the actual ending of the world.  Isn't this when the General Judgement takes place?

At any rate, my comment concerns the time before the coming of the antichrist, not after.  For there to be a 'great chastisement', or if the consecration happened, and a restoration followed, it would mean that the world would recover from the degraded state it is in, enjoy another golden age of Christendom, and then fall into degradation all over again.  And there is no Scriptural basis for this.


Quote
Fr Arminjon doesn’t agree with the above opinion and says:
Quote
the most authoritative view, and the one that seems to be in harmony with Holy Scripture, is that after the fall of antichrist, the catholic church will once again enter upon a period of prosperity and triumph.

He quotes St Paul:
Quote
If the fall of the Jews, which brought about the conversion of the Gentiles, was the strength of the Church and the richness of the world, and if their loss has become the salvation of men, what will their return be if not a resurrection for the world from death to life?

Fr A goes on to ask the question:
Quote
Is it really credible that the day when all people will be united in this long sought harmony will be the one when the heavens shall pass away with great violence – that the period when the church militant enters her fullness will coincide with that of the final catastrophe?

St Paul states that Christ destroys the antichrist when He comes again.  Isn't that when the Jews convert? So again, the period being discussed here is after the rise of the antichrist, not before.  And allowing for, say, 45 days to sort the sheep from the goats and complete the General Judgement, the old world passes away and the new one begins.  Isn't that what St Paul is referring to. 

Quote
I find that a valid question worthy of consideration.  Though stating it was the more authoritative view, Fr Arminjon did not indicate who else held it and why he considered it the “more authoritative view”, so that needs investigating, but I do see the point he is making.    Is the mystical body of Christ’s glorious resurrection on earth to be over in an instant?  Does God miss out on having the entire world, united at last in the true faith and all now members of His church, praise and glorify Him on earth with the freedom of their will?  Continued in heaven, of course, as the church triumphant, but it just seems fitting to me that some period of united praise and adoration of God by the entire world should occur whilst still in the world.       

Of course I could be off track, but I find it an interesting question and I just don't think that prophecy alone is responsible for the idea of a restoration of some sort.

These are interesting questions, and I don't know the answers.  But why would God be missing out on anything if the world ended 45 days, lets say, after Christ came again.  Isn't that when the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven, and the old world passes away and the new one begins?

Hmmm....

The main point of my comment is that I believe we are living on the time of the rise of the antichrist and that there will be no restoration or period of peace before Christ comes again.  If there is a period of glory for the Church after the General Judgement etc, then that would be lovely.  If not, it won't matter because the new Jerusalem will be even better.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 01:49:12 PM »

The main point of my comment is that I believe we are living on the time of the rise of the antichrist and that there will be no restoration or period of peace before Christ comes again.  If there is a period of glory for the Church after the General Judgement etc, then that would be lovely.  If not, it won't matter because the new Jerusalem will be even better.

This has always been my own thinking, at least what I have been inclined to believe. The transformation of the faithful Church Militant into the Church Triumphant is infinitely more of a restoration than an earthly restoration, it seems to me.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2020, 02:03:58 PM »
Yes, Fr. Arminjon's writings explain it beautifully. Here are the passages in Sacred Scripture, as explained by Father in that book St. Therese liked, that speak of a Reign of Peace, when God's (Christ's) Kingship is recognized in all nations: "Now, it is written that, at the end of time, the gospel will have been given as a witness to all the nations. David cries out, "All peoples, to the ends of the earth, will remember the Lord and re-turn to Him, because dominion belongs to Him and He governs the nations" (Ps 22:28-29).

Further on, David continues, "May He rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth. His foes shall bow before Him, and His enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and the Isles shall offer gifts; the kings of Arabia and Sheba shall bring tribute" (Ps. 72:8-10).

The Lord then speaks to the Church through Isaiah: "Enlarge the space of your tent, spread out your tent cloths unsparingly; lengthen your ropes and make firm your stakes. For you shall spread abroad to the right and to the left; your descendants shall dispossess the nations and shall populate the desolate cities” (Is 54:2-3).

These texts are explicit and precise. It is clear from their testimony that there will come a time when all heresies and schisms will be overcome, and when the true religion will be known and practiced in all places illuminated by the sun." https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/g004EndTimes.htm

But the question is not as simple as it seems at first glance. In fact, "either Anti-Christ or Period of Peace" is a dichotomy. But it is a dichotomy we are all used to, because we are all used to the idea that everything must immediately end immediately after Anti-Christ. But Isaiah speaks of a Temporal Reign of Peace (Isa 65:20) where everyone will live a long time before death. This could not refer to eternal life, but to the prophesied period of peace before it. But again, isn't it written that when the Jews will convert, there will be great blessings for all that will last a long while? And yet how is that possible if on the other hand it is also written that when the Anti-Christ comes, the Jews will accept him as the Messiah? We cannot fail to see, then, that Anti-Christ will come before the Period of Peace. The Jews will first accept him as their Messiah. But later on they will regret it, see through Anti-Christ, and then turn to Christ. And this imo will spark the period of great blessing spoken of in the Apostles and Prophets, and what we call the Age of Mary or the Period of Peace. And so I believe Anti-Christ is alive and currently living on earth, and will show himself to the world before long. Period of Peace after it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 02:07:47 PM by Xavier »
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2020, 02:37:17 PM »
... Thy kingdom come.
    Thy will be done
    on earth as it is in heaven. ...

Yes, it could be meaning after Judgement Day, but that would be speculating.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2020, 03:06:25 PM »
Quote

[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. [2] And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God. [4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away. [5] And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.
Rev 21

« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 03:08:48 PM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2020, 04:16:09 PM »
Yes, Apocalypse 21 is clearly talking about after Judgment Day.  It sounds like heaven and earth will be one place with "the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them."

But if that's the case then why does Our Lord's prayer say God's Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Two different places; you know like it is now, before Judgment Day.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2020, 08:42:45 PM »
Yes, Apocalypse 21 is clearly talking about after Judgment Day.  It sounds like heaven and earth will be one place with "the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them."

But if that's the case then why does Our Lord's prayer say God's Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  Two different places; you know like it is now, before Judgment Day.

Isn't it an expression of desire and hope rather than a prediction, hope and the aspiration that the name of Our Father in Heaven will be hallowed, that His Kingdom will come and His Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

If God's Will was done on both earth and in heaven, would they be separate?  Would they need to be?  Surely God's Will would unite earth and heaven and there would be no need for the separation.

To be honest, your question has never occurred to me before.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2020, 12:40:23 AM »
Yeah we don't really know for sure whether Our Lord's prayer is referring to His Will being done in two separate places, heaven and earth, do we?  Like I said, it's speculation but my guess would be two places before Judgement Day.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
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Offline Aeternitus

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Re: Great restoration or second coming
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2020, 04:41:29 AM »
   

I agree with you, Awkward, there is no scriptural basis for believing in a restoration prior to antichrist.  The restoration which Fr Arminjon talks about is definitely after antichrist, when the Jews and the entire world will be converted to the true faith, as a result of the rise and fall of antichrist. 

Fr Arminjon argues that the death of antichrist does not herald the Second Coming and the end of the world.  I will let him explain:

Quote
St John does not tell us what the fate of the antichrist will be, but St Paul teaches that “the Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and annihilate him by manifesting His own presence.”

Some have concluded from this passage that Christ is to come down in person to strike His great adversary, and this will be the day when He will appear in His glory and majesty.  This interpretation is incorrect.  St Thomas and St John Chrysostom explain the words quem Dominus Jesus destuet illustratione adventus sui (whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming) in the sense that Christ will strike the antichrist by dazzling him with a brightness that will be like an omen and sign of His Second Coming. St Paul does not at all say that Christ will kill him with His own hands, but by His breath, “spiritu oris sui” (with the spirit of His mouth) – that is, as St Thomas explains, by virtue of His power, as a result of His command, whether, as some believe, executing it  through the cooperation of St Michael the Archangel, or having some other agent, visible or invisible, spiritual or inanimate, intervene.  What is certain is that Satan will be hurled back into the darkness of the abyss, the reign of the man of evil will be utterly destroyed, and his power, which aspired to extend up to the heaven, will vanish like a cloud of smoke.

Like you, I am of the view that antichrist is nigh.   The stage has been set.  I am open minded on what happens after his demise, but find Fr Arminjon's arguments both interesting and convincing.   I am not yet persuaded of a 45 day interim, which Fr A quotes as being one opinion only (Suarez) and not his.   






 
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